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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
 Posted - 12/16/2007 : 04:17:28 AM
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| Anybody here remember SO PROUDLY WE HAIL? Remember the scene where Veronica Lake hides the grenade in her bosom and goes out to pretend to surrender to the Japanese, then pulls the pin when they close in on her? Today's film commentators would call her a war criminal. They made that comment about Humphrey Bogart's character in PASSAGE TO MARSEILLE, for killing the people who had tried to kill him-and failed. |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2007 : 05:29:51 AM
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I haven't seen So proudly we hail, but I remember well Passage to Marsaille and wasn't offended at all when Bogie gunned down those German aviators. It's not only that they had it coming for attacking a non-militar transport, but also that Bogart's reaction felt completely natural. And this comes from what you'd call a liberal (ironically, in my country neocons call themselves liberals) who doesn't agree with an eye for an eye scenarios. But c'on, that's war.
I do find the Veronica Lake anecdote fascinating, though. We have learned to identify that kind of actions with Muslim jihadists, yet western fiction is also packed with examples of heroes who decide to die killing, even if that involves, as in this case, what you'd call 'foul play'. |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2007 : 09:36:31 AM
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Someone once said of war that if you like to fight in the mud and your opponent likes to gouge eyes, you'll be fighting in the mud trying to gouge each other's eyes before the end.
The Japanese weren't known for following the rules of war and were notorious for faking surrender, playing dead, and treating prisoners horribly. Based on when the film was made, most people watching it probably considered turn-about to be fair play. Of course if the Japanese decided to just execute people trying to surrender, it would make sense.
<i>We have learned to identify that kind of actions with Muslim jihadists, yet western fiction is also packed with examples of heroes who decide to die killing, even if that involves, as in this case, what you'd call 'foul play'.</i>
I think that is wrong. I think people associate jihadist suicide attacks with attacking civilians like running planes into buildings. No one calls Japanese kamikaze pilots terrorists because they targeted military targets. Also, the jihadists dress and act like civilians which makes them indistinguishable from the civilian population. If the jihadists launched suicide attacks against military/government installations while wearing identifying uniforms there wouldn't be complaints from most people.
- Si desea pulse 2 para español, encontrar un país diferente. - |
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2007 : 11:18:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
The Japanese weren't known for following the rules of war and were notorious for faking surrender, playing dead, and treating prisoners horribly. Based on when the film was made, most people watching it probably considered turn-about to be fair play. Of course if the Japanese decided to just execute people trying to surrender, it would make sense.
T.H.,
I'm not an expert on WWII, but I think this is spot on vis a vis the fight in the Pacific against the Japanese. I remember reading that the battle for Okinawa was unbelievably horrendous because the Japanese refused to surrender and were willing to fight to the death on the off chance of killing an American soldier. In the end, I think the Allies had to resort to the most vicious methods possible to secure the island - resorting to flame-throwers to clear defended Japanese positions for example.
It's good to remember all this, I think, given the fact that so many still second guess Truman's decision to use the bomb. Every fight against the Japanese told the American military that an effort to take the home islands would involve wholesale slaughter of Japanese. There's a lot of evidence in fact that the Japanese were preparing to arm women and children with primitive weapons and order them to try to kill American soldiers coming ashore. For those who would argue that Truman did the wrong thing I ask whether they'd be any happier if an invasion of Japan had proceeded and required the use of flame-throwers and napalm on women and children to secure victory. |
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2007 : 12:53:59 PM
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Check out the US Army's training film series, Fighting Men Kill Or Be Killed.
By the time "So Proudly We Hail" was made, the infamous "rape of Nanking" was well-known. The US had armed the war-front nurses with pistols because of the loss of nurses in the Phillipines. In real-life, the nurses had baracaded themselves in a bunker and posted one of their own inside the door with a FRYING PAN and threatened to "brain" the 'Nips' untill they were assured that they would be treated as prisoners.
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
Edited by - Greenhornet on 12/16/2007 12:54:49 PM |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2007 : 3:03:09 PM
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There's a lot of evidence in fact that the Japanese were preparing to arm women and children with primitive weapons and order them to try to kill American soldiers coming ashore. For those who would argue that Truman did the wrong thing I ask whether they'd be any happier if an invasion of Japan had proceeded and required the use of flame-throwers and napalm on women and children to secure victory.
Actually, in 1945, the Japanese government had already declared every person, except for infants and very young children, to be a part of the military in preparation for the invasion. Technically that meant any city we bombed was a military installation. Also, one thing people don't realize is that towards the end we were announcing via leaflets and radio which cities were going to be bombed in the very near future. There were three sets of leaflets announcing ten cities each that were potential targets. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were listed on one of the leaflets about a week before the atomic bombings. I believe most of the cities listed were eventually bombed.
- Si desea pulse 2 para español, encontrar un país diferente. - |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2007 : 8:21:46 PM
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The Japanese intentionally made the Battle of Okinawa as horrendous as possible. It was, from what I've read, a deliberate message to the Allies that mainland Japan would be just as horrible, but on a larger scale. It was a play for conditional surrender.
We got the message loud and clear that an invasion of mainland Japan would be costly. Therefore, we used science rather than bodies. I believe those atomic bombs saved more lives than they ended.
From what I've read, the Japanese were not the kind of people you entertained thoughts of surrender to. When I was in Baghdad, I determined that I would not be taken alive if the situation presented itself. I would not want my family or friends subjected to images of me being beheaded on the internet. In the hands of people like that, you PRAY for waterboarding. |
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niccolom
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2007 : 9:17:05 PM
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"The Japanese weren't known for following the rules of war and were notorious for faking surrender,"
The Germans were known to do the same thing. They were also famous for booby-trapping just about anything, including dead and wounded soldiers. Needless to say, this tended to p*** off Allied soldiers, which could have lethal results for German soldiers genuinely trying to surrender. |
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Capt. Nemo
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
630 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2007 : 11:38:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
The Japanese weren't known for following the rules of war and were notorious for faking surrender, playing dead, and treating prisoners horribly. Based on when the film was made, most people watching it probably considered turn-about to be fair play. Of course if the Japanese decided to just execute people trying to surrender, it would make sense.
Are you sure about that?
Faking surrender and playing dead don't sound like things the Japanese would have done during World War 2.
As I understood it, the Japanese fought under the Bushido code. Under that code, underhanded tactics were thought of as cowardly and expressly forbidden. That's why the Japanese refused to take part in commerce raiding with their submarine fleet. Germany and America did with major success.
The Bushido is what sunk the Japanese in many ways. You weren't allowed to surrender. That's why they beat prisoners and worked them to death because the prisoners disgraced themselves by surrendering. On the flip side, Japanese prisoners who were caught by the Allies became depressed and cooperative because they felt Japan and their people wouldn't want them back.
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"Ward, the Beaver blew up the 7-11 again."
"I'll have a talk with him Dear" |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 01:58:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Carrier
We got the message loud and clear that an invasion of mainland Japan would be costly. Therefore, we used science rather than bodies. I believe those atomic bombs saved more lives than they ended.
I agree. |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 02:01:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Nemo
The Bushido is what sunk the Japanese in many ways. You weren't allowed to surrender. That's why they beat prisoners and worked them to death because the prisoners disgraced themselves by surrendering. On the flip side, Japanese prisoners who were caught by the Allies became depressed and cooperative because they felt Japan and their people wouldn't want them back.
Just being in prison, even if you DO get the Geneva Convention treatment Americans gave to POWs, can be a depressing experience. |
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thewarden
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 08:03:16 AM
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I know no one wants to hear this... but have you ever really thought through the logistics of taking and caring for prisoners in island fighting? There were no secure rear areas. There were no surplus supplies. There were no significant complement of guard troops.
Have you heard of the "Pied Piper of Saipan"? (http://www.wtj.com/articles/gabaldon/)
He persuaded over 1000 Japanese to surrender over several episodes. This, and many other instances, convince me that the the Japanese lack of surrenders was partly a function of their code of honor, but also largely a function of the nature of the war which made taking and holding prisoners difficult and thus, on the whole, American forces were not encouraged to take prisoners either.
Just a thought.
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 09:02:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Carrier
From what I've read, the Japanese were not the kind of people you entertained thoughts of surrender to.
I remember speaking with some friends about this a few years back, and someone pointed out that the percentage of American POWs that died in custody of the Japanese was 10 times larger than those held by Germany. If this Wikipedia is to be belived the numbers are around 3.5% of POWs in Germany and 37% in Japan. (Caveat lector as always with Wikipedia.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war#Treatment_of_POWs_by_the_Axis
In addition to this disparity, the health of so many American POWs was broken by brutality that a large percentage of the 60% that survived the war died soon after from health problems related to chronic mistreatment.
There are definitely some apple to oranges questions, here, because as the Warden has pointed out above the nature of the war was quite different. Still, the Japanese also weren't above simply slaughtering surrendering soldiers so the comparison could actually be even worse for them were that to be taken into account.
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 2:45:39 PM
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One of the more haunting stories of the war I carry around in my head is from the Battle of Okinawa.
Plenty of Okinawan/Japanese civilians living on the island. They were told by their government what would happen to them, especially their women, if they fell into the hands of American soldiers.
One of the villages basically committed mass suicide. Most of us have heard of whole families jumping off of cliffs, but this village wasn't near the coast.
One man, with only minutes to spare before Americans entered the village, strangled his wife and children to death with a rope and stick in tourniquet fashion. Minutes after he accomplished this, the Americans arrived.
And American soldiers and medics immediately set about trying to save the villagers who had committed or attempted suicide. The father was...well, how do you put it into words? How do you even express something like that? The realization that he'd just killed his entire family over a lie?
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 3:35:10 PM
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The Japanese have survived a barbarous history, like most of Europe and the rest of the world.
Human pride is a dangeous thing.
Look at the cheapness of life in Samuri films. YOJIMBO, RAN, KAGAMUSHA, ect.
What Orientals and Asians call 'saveing face' is just the same human pride everyone has, but the cultural foundation makes such cruel things easier.
Why?...thats the tough part. Japanese Americans are like the rest of us. They have access to their roots, yet live by modern expectations. So there is no racial explination possable. Ideas?
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
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Edited by - Flangepart on 12/19/2007 3:54:57 PM |
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 3:55:03 PM
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The Japanese have survived a barbarous history, like most of Europe and the rest of the world.
Human pride is a dangeious thing.
Look at the cheapness of life in Samuri films. YOJIMBO, RAN, KAGAMUSHA, ect.
What Orientals and Asians call 'saveing face' is just the same human pride everyone has, but the cultural foundation makes such things easier.
Why?...thats the tough part. Japanese Americans are like the rest of us. They have access to their roots, yet live by modern expectations. So there is no racial explination possable. Ideas?
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
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