| Author |
 Topic  |
|
R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2005 : 9:38:59 PM
|
Up front I'll admit that there are what our liberal confreres may reasonably regard as gratuitous shots against Jane Fonda, Rob Reiner and Oliver Stone in this article. City Journal is a conservative publication.
http://www.city-journal.com/html/15_4_urbanities-conservatives.html
Read further however and you'll find food for thought and debate. Note in particular the "outings". Adam Sandler?? Freddie Prinze, Jr.??!! Closet conservatives both! |
|
|
zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 01:53:42 AM
|
One thing I find disingenuous is pundits' insistence that the recent drop-off at the box office is due to America's rejection of Hollywood limousine liberal politics. (The article alleges this as well.)
While it's certain that most Americans do not lean left of center, it's hard to make the case that politics necessarily plays into their movie watching habits, especially when you consider Meet the Fockers grossed $280 million, Barbra Streisand notwithstanding, and even Monster-in-Law managed a tidy $82 million return despite the presence of Jane Fonda, who to many on the Right is Satan Incarnate.
And the argument that political content drives people away is also debatable. For every audience member you lose, another you gain. So a Bush-bashing film like Fahrenheit 9-11 was able to do extremely well even if it didn't play to the centrist-to-conservative political base.
Really, the reason why box office is down (slightly) right now is so many movies suck, and even the good ones aren't exactly must-see. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, but then Hollywood is still convinced that the reason people stopped going to Disney animated films is because they no longer like hand-drawn animation. |
 |
|
|
The Waffle Man
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Oman
491 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 03:39:15 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by zombiewhacker
One thing I find disingenuous is pundits' insistence that the recent drop-off at the box office is due to America's rejection of Hollywood limousine liberal politics. (The article alleges this as well.)
While it's certain that most Americans do not lean left of center, it's hard to make the case that politics necessarily plays into their movie watching habits, especially when you consider Meet the Fockers grossed $280 million, Barbra Streisand notwithstanding, and even Monster-in-Law managed a tidy $82 million return despite the presence of Jane Fonda, who to many on the Right is Satan Incarnate.
And the argument that political content drives people away is also debatable. For every audience member you lose, another you gain. So a Bush-bashing film like Fahrenheit 9-11 was able to do extremely well even if it didn't play to the centrist-to-conservative political base.
Really, the reason why box office is down (slightly) right now is so many movies suck, and even the good ones aren't exactly must-see. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, but then Hollywood is still convinced that the reason people stopped going to Disney animated films is because they no longer like hand-drawn animation.
Also, DVDs are often blamed.
You know who's worst about this thing you're talking about? Michael Medved. About a week or so ago I was reading an article of his in which he was saying that movies about women kicking ass don't sell, because audiences know that women are too girly to kick ass, and they want to see women being more realistically feminine.
Now, sexism aside, what pissed me off was that he never brought up the counter-examples; Hia evidence consisted of Carwoman and Angelina Jolie in that movie where the husband and wife were both secretly assassins. You know, the one that came out recently. I can't remember the name.
Anyway, I think that there are plenty of places to place the blame for Catwoman's failure, besides the idea that audiences don't like woman action stars.
And more then that, if you say to the average movie-goer "Name a female action star" they aren't likely to respond first with "Halle Berry" (I hope). What about, say, Lucy Liu, or Sigourney Weaver, or Pam Grier? How can you write an artical about woman action stars and not mention them? I know Medved knows who they are, he worked on The Golden Turkeys fer crying out loud!
It angered me.
That said, I don't really care about movie stars' politics. I mean, that's their own buisness. I'm more worried if they turn to Scientology.
"Mom, all the other kids are asking why my daddy didn't show up at the school play.
"I'm sorry hon, you were created through an unholy form of human mitosis."
"GRR! KILL!"
-Ecchi Attack
|
|
|
|
John Nowak
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1017 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 09:30:58 AM
|
Personally, I think it's because films are now competing with a huge body of work that's already been released.
I could very easily stop going to movies altogether and just watch Netflix DVDs -- and not too many of the films on my queue were released after 2000.
----------
We've always been united in stupidity. That's why there is no hope. But, then again, when has that ever stopped us?
-- hbrennan |
|
|
|
CobraCmdr
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
70 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 11:50:24 AM
|
| Did anyone catch the recent South Park that parodied The Day After Tomorrow? In one scene a scientist was lecturing a group of dignitaries on the threat of global warming. A guy who looked like Dick Cheney objected, to which the scientist replied "You're wrong Cliched Disenting Republican!" |
|
|
|
tam1MI
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 5:57:01 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by zombiewhacker
Really, the reason why box office is down (slightly) right now is so many movies suck, and even the good ones aren't exactly must-see.
Just to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment, there were years when far worse stinkbombs were released upon the american public (remember 1998, The Year of GODZILLA and ARMAGEDDON? Not to mention lesser stinkers like SMALL SOLDIERS, LETHAL WEAPON IV and BASE-KETBALL? The box office still showed healthy returns that year... hell, even the much-maligned GODZILLA showed a profit).
I think the Unindicted Co-Conspirator in the box office malaise is the sucky economy. Everybody now knows how gas prices went nuts after Hurricane Katrina, but they weren't exactly low before then. And now people are looking at massive increases in their heating bills. As Slate magazine puts it in an article about another industry that is falling upon hard times after being seen as a license to print money, "The [problem] currently bedevils all companies that depend on consumers to blow discretionary income on their products and services: the lethal cocktail of inflation, rising interest rates, and weak income". ([url]http://www.slate.com/id/2129653/[/url]). Money that might have gone for a movie is going into gas tanks and to pay bills instead. Its that simple. |
|
|
|
UnknownSubject
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Australia
212 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 7:36:08 PM
|
The Waffle Man - the movie was "Mr and Mrs Smith".
Most people don't care who actors vote for or what they believe in. I mean, is it more likely that audiences stayed away from "Collateral Damage" because Schwarzenegger is a Republican, or because it was a terrible movie? Or does the fact that "War of the Worlds" did well enough mean that lots of people think Tom Cruise's Scientology beliefs are the way to go?
As Zombiewacker said, a lot of the films released in the past twelve months were pretty ordinary. Some studios need to (re-)learn the fact that just because a film's budget is big it doesn't guarantee a good movie at the end of it.
Spandex Cinema
http://sc.thebeholder.org
Latest Review - "Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD" |
|
|
|
R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 9:36:35 PM
|
ZW,
I have to quibble with you on a couple of points:
quote:
Originally posted by zombiewhacker
While it's certain that most Americans do not lean left of center, it's hard to make the case that politics necessarily plays into their movie watching habits, especially when you consider Meet the Fockers grossed $280 million, Barbra Streisand notwithstanding, and even Monster-in-Law managed a tidy $82 million return despite the presence of Jane Fonda, who to many on the Right is Satan Incarnate.
I'm not sure that its the politics of the stars so much as the overt display of said politics. I was pretty unimpressed by Meet the Fockers, but I wouldn't say that the film was political. What's Up, Doc? is still one of my favorite films despite Babs astonishing lack of political insight. In addition, the fact that Jane Fonda enjoyed kissing the keisters of Commie slave-masters back in the 70's doesn't mean that you can't enjoy a harmless rom-com that she has a part in. Massive flaws both films have, but directly insulting one side of the political aisle are arguably not among them.
quote:
Originally posted by zombiewhacker
And the argument that political content drives people away is also debatable. For every audience member you lose, another you gain. So a Bush-bashing film like Fahrenheit 9-11 was able to do extremely well even if it didn't play to the centrist-to-conservative political base.
This I will have to call you to task on. "For every one you lose, one you gain" is not a succesful strategy. Could you really run a business that way? If every dollar you took in from sales meant you lost another dollar somewhere else then that means a big zip to you, the business owner. I think the article made a good point here with its advertising example. Would any rational company produce an ad with the message: "Come and buy our product, unless you're one of those pinko, tree-hugging nancy-boys" or "Come and buy our product, unless you're one of those toothless, inbred, Bible-thumping morons"?
To make the big bucks, you have to produce something that won't directly offend either political sensibility. That's why I think the article's mention of Spiderman II was so a propos. I'm not a big fan of the Spiderman flicks either, but the article is right that they do play up some political themes that conservatives hold dear like responsibility and self-sacrifice. On the other hand the movies are wildly successful, so I'm sure that there are many themes that liberals find congenial as well. I don't want to caricature the beliefs my liberal friends, so I’d defer to a liberally minded minion to point out which themes in Spiderman II they find so engaging. This will just prove my point, however. The most successful films are respectful of both political persuasions. In-your-face left-wing preaching just cuts your potential audience in half.
|
|
|
|
TheFoywonder
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
833 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 12:51:30 AM
|
quote:
You know who's worst about this thing you're talking about? Michael Medved. About a week or so ago I was reading an article of his in which he was saying that movies about women kicking ass don't sell, because audiences know that women are too girly to kick ass, and they want to see women being more realistically feminine.
Now, sexism aside, what pissed me off was that he never brought up the counter-examples; Hia evidence consisted of Carwoman and Angelina Jolie in that movie where the husband and wife were both secretly assassins. You know, the one that came out recently. I can't remember the name
If Medved really did use MR. & MRS. SMITH as an example then he had completely lost his mind because its one of the highest grossing films of the year making nearly $200 million.
What am I saying... Medved and sanity haven't been seen in the same room together in years. If the guy leaned any further to the right he'd tip over.
Now Playing in Foyeurism at Schlocktoberfest.Com:
PATH OF (LEAST) DESTRUCTION - I survived a bad storm to write a review of a bad movie about a bad storm?
Plus: B-WARE THE BLOG is alive at http://www.livejournal.com/users/foywonder |
|
|
|
The Waffle Man
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Oman
491 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 06:16:49 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by R. Dittmar
Would any rational company produce an ad with the message: "Come and buy our product, unless you're one of those pinko, tree-hugging nancy-boys" or "Come and buy our product, unless you're one of those toothless, inbred, Bible-thumping morons"?
Yes. Ever heard of "Left Behind"? The book that says I'm going to be punished, possibly killed and sent to hell by god? "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot" ring a bell? I don't think many Ditto-heads went in for that one.
Nich marketing can be very successful.
quote:
I don't want to caricature the beliefs my liberal friends, so I’d defer to a liberally minded minion to point out which themes in Spiderman II they find so engaging.
Um... Responsibility and self-sacrifice.
Everybody loves those things, dude, they just come out in different ways. For example, Spider-Man aids New Yorkers yet recieves little in return. Like Welfare. But also like welfare, it does help him a bit in the long run. I mean, to me, self-sacrifice can be to help others.
"Mom, all the other kids are asking why my daddy didn't show up at the school play.
"I'm sorry hon, you were created through an unholy form of human mitosis."
"GRR! KILL!"
-Ecchi Attack
|
|
|
|
KurtVon
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 12:40:42 PM
|
Heh, I usually avoid commenting on political threads but I couldn't resist this.
The difference in your politics is painfully obvious even though you are using the same words. You both insist that the political theme of responsability in Spiderman is supporting your politics while disagreeing at the same time.
R. Dittmar is clearly discussing the theme of personal responsibility while The Waffle Man is just as obviously talking about social responsibility. I probably should be leaving well enough alone, but the way you were talking past one another was a little too amusing not to note.
Personally I think both themes were well represented in the movie, and the fact that they were evenhanded enough not to interfere with one another is probably why a film with a subject that needs to take some political stances was successful at overcoming them.
|
|
|
|
Capt. Nemo
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
630 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 1:09:35 PM
|
Who's really to say what they were thinking when people make a film?
Unless it's blatantly obvious, people tend to draft their own opinions as to a films politics.
The example I will site is Steven Speilberg's Duel. Speilberg said that, when the film was released in Europe, foriegn critics thought he was making a statement about the working class(i.e. the Truck) verses the upper class(i.e. Dennis Weaver). Speilberg was amazed by this because he thought he was making a fun thriller. It was then he realized the people will never see the same film as you see it. |
|
|
|
Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 1:27:17 PM
|
Kind of like the Kurt Vonnegut plotline in "Back to School" where Rodney Dangerfield has Vonnegut write his paper and the English prof. tells RD he has no idea what KV meant in his book.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist. |
|
|
|
zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 2:19:52 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by tam1MI
I think the Unindicted Co-Conspirator in the box office malaise is the sucky economy... Money that might have gone for a movie is going into gas tanks and to pay bills instead. Its that simple.
The economic picture was much bleaker during the early part of the decade yet this reality was not reflected in box office take.
[url]http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Years/2004/top-grossing[/url]
[url]http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Years/2003/top-grossing[/url]
[url]http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Years/2002/top-grossing[/url]
[url]http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Years/2001/top-grossing[/url]
quote:
Originally posted by R. Dittmar
I'm not sure that its the politics of the stars so much as the overt display of said politics.
I was responding to the City Journal article linked at the top of this thread, which stated:
"But guess what: ever more Americans are shunning Hollywood’s wares—and disgust with Left Coast politics, both on and off screen (emphasis mine), clearly plays a part."
and
“'You can date the recent box-office decline from the end of the summer last year, with the intensification of the presidential campaign,' notes conservative film critic and talk-radio host Michael Medved. 'It wasn’t just Hollywood’s hostility toward President Bush; it was the naked, raw partisanship.'”
Yeah, 8 Mile really took it on the chin at the box office, didn't it? Serves Eminem right for campaigning against Bush.
quote:
Originally posted by The Foywonder
If Medved really did use MR. & MRS. SMITH as an example then he had completely lost his mind because its one of the highest grossing films of the year making nearly $200 million.
Well, remember Medved is the ying-yang who also insists Pearl Harbor was a box office flop, so that's par for the course.
quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Nemo
The example I will site is Steven Speilberg's Duel. Speilberg said that, when the film was released in Europe, foriegn critics thought he was making a statement about the working class(i.e. the Truck) verses the upper class(i.e. Dennis Weaver).
I'm reminded of a anecdote involving director Irvin Kershner and a Russian filmmaker during the Cold War (quoting from the book "Reel Power" by Mark Witlak.)
Most Hollywood films do not appear to have any political point of view. Of course, what is political is in the eye of the beholder...
(Kershner) recalls being told by a Russian filmmaker that American films were highly political.
The Russian said, "You go see an ordinary (American) film and the telephone rings and somebody runs over and there is a telephone in the middle of the living room. And then you cut and the kid is talking on a telephone in his bedroom. In the hall you see... (another) telephone, and there is one in the kitchen. In Russia if you have a telephone it is in the closet so you can go in and close the door so nobody can hear you.
"Then you open a refrigerator in a film and it is stocked full of food and people are taking things out, spilling things, and grabbing food and running out. They are treating food as if it was nothing. My God that is propaganda. I'll bet that many of the people around the world are looking at that and not even seeing the picture. They are watching the food in the refrigerator... You have a scene in a supermarket and the audience's eyes are bulging out. Cars are smashed up... We wait five years to get a car... Here you have kids driving huge cars. And we say to ourselves, 'How much gasoline does that car take to go a mile?' This is political."
|
|
|
|
John Nowak
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1017 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 10:04:12 PM
|
You know, I've always wondered about the role of artists in general... can you really make something worth while if the only thing you've ever done with your life is study how to make films? What can you put into it, except stuff swiped from other films you've seen?
----------
We've always been united in stupidity. That's why there is no hope. But, then again, when has that ever stopped us?
-- hbrennan |
|
|
|
Capt. Nemo
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
630 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 12:57:09 AM
|
| Wasn't there a quotation that went something like "Good artists create. Great artists steal." |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Forum Locked
Topic Locked