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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2007 : 08:39:08 AM
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At the very great risk of starting another round of spirited invective, here we go again:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1051718/
What on earth has caused Hollywood to think that Americans are craving more "evil American soldiers killing and raping" movies?? |
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Ken HPoJ
Supreme Potentate
USA
1530 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 08:53:29 AM
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Again, let me call for level heads here, although you guys generally police yourself quite well. Anyone still wishing to argue the war itself, please see the previous thread, where that discussion has already been pretty much played out.
That said, I think it's because a) there definately is an echo-chamber effect in Hollywood as to politics, b) they do make some movies for themselves--Oscar bait, etc.--as opposed to just to make money, and c) like many liberals (please note the lack of a broad brush) they have overestimated and misunderstood the public's complex feelings about the war in Iraq. Polling on this subject is typically useless because the questions are invariably poorly written and aimed at getting a simple "Yes or No" response when, outside of a small percentage of hardcore partisons on both side of the issue, the public's real feelings are, "Yes or No, BUT...." Most obviously, you often hear "[Insert percentage] of the public is against the war!" when what many are actually saying is that they are frustrated with how well the war is being fought, rather than being against it per se. Now that things are turning around on the ground in Iraq, poll numbers on the war are too, which reflects this.
PEGGY: I don't see how having a girl on the team would ruin it. Did a woman judge ruin the Supreme Court?
HANK: Yes, and that woman's name was Earl Warren.
--King of the Hill |
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 09:24:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken HPoJ
That said, I think it's because a) there definately is an echo-chamber effect in Hollywood as to politics, b) they do make some movies for themselves--Oscar bait, etc.--as opposed to just to make money ...
It occurred to me during the whole Redacted discussion that probably the closest thing to the world of Hollywood is the world of academe. Yes, I’m talking about ivory-tower pointy-heads. Both groups are doctrinaire liberals if not outright leftists. And the echo chamber effect also comes into play. Just as a big Hollywood star traveling with his/her entourage never has to hear a contradictory opinion on politics, a university professor is never going to hear any opposing points of view down in the faculty lounge.
And the “Oscar bait” phenomenon is eerily similar to academic research. Just as an Oscar bait movie is made solely to appeal to a group of similar thinking people (Hollywood insiders), academic research is written and published in journals that appeal only to another group of similar thinking people. No attempt whatsoever is made to appeal to “middle America”. Academic research in fact typically is so jargon-laded as to expressly try to drive away the uninitiated.
I’ve always theorized that people with certain personalities tend to gravitate towards a particular political viewpoint at the same time that the personality causes them to gravitate toward certain occupations. This ends up making certain occupations overwhelmingly liberal – actor, journalist and professor for example. Liberal personalities are drawn towards these jobs because a certain amount of moral hectoring of the bourgeois has always been part and parcel of the liberal persuasion and these jobs give them an outlet for being didactic – whether its lecturing in the classroom or making movies like Redacted or Pinkville. (Or JFK for that matter, but that’s a whole ‘nother discussion.) |
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thewarden
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 10:10:25 AM
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quote:
a university professor is never going to hear any opposing points of view down in the faculty lounge.
With all due respect, you simply don't know what you are talking about.
Having worked and taught for 10 years at an "elite" American university, and spent even more time moving among academic circles, I can absolutely assure you that there is a lot of spirited debate. I haven't had the opportunity to work and live among Hollywood types -- Paris Hilton won't return my phone calls -- but at least in academia, your statement is simply untrue. Are there more liberals than conservatives? Yes. Is there anything like complete agreement on issue? No. Would it be nice to see a bit more balance in debates on campuses? Sure. Are all campuses the same? Of course, not. I can't speak for small, liberal colleges overrun with rejects from the 1960s. But at places like the Ivys, Stanford, Chicago, Duke, Georgetown, MIT, etc etc etc, there is constant, on-going, vigorous debate on virtually any issue imaginable.
John Yoo teaches in the UC system. Bernard Lewis is from Princeton. Samuel Huntington is at Harvard. Doug Feith is currently teaching at Georgetown. I mean, come on, get serious.
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 10:33:07 AM
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Hollywood is vacuous no matter what ideology is the flavor of the moment there. If it all turned conservative tomorrow its politics would be just as cliched and brainless but only from a different ideological vantage point. Ideological echo chambers are a bad thing in general no matter what ideas are richocheting around in them.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
Edited by - Ericb on 11/30/2007 10:34:15 AM |
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Ken HPoJ
Supreme Potentate
USA
1530 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 10:34:30 AM
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I'd say that about sums it up.
PEGGY: I don't see how having a girl on the team would ruin it. Did a woman judge ruin the Supreme Court?
HANK: Yes, and that woman's name was Earl Warren.
--King of the Hill |
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 11:00:52 AM
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Ken,
I must apologize. In retrospect, my decision to post this link was ill-conceived - bordering on troll-like - given the tempers I caused to flair below. The least I could have done is wait for the movie to come out before making fun of it.
I bow out and apologize once again. (Although if anyone wants to talk about JFK ...) |
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Ken HPoJ
Supreme Potentate
USA
1530 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 11:28:12 AM
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RD -- I don't think you crossed any lines here. I'm not sure you even approached the lines, but to the extent you did, modifiers like "many" are always helpful in keeping the debate on point, rather than hewing off on side issues..
Warden, I agree that one should try not to brush too broadly, but I have to disagree with you as to the extent of the problem here: "But at places like the Ivys, Stanford, Chicago, Duke, Georgetown, MIT, etc etc etc, there is constant, on-going, vigorous debate on virtually any issue imaginable."
Debate is one thing, but the Duke Fraud Case and the fact that schools have continued to not punish a positive rash of faked hate crimes and such proves that there are extremely malign real-world results to the echo chamber that pretty much does exist on campus. Larry Summers being fired for his extremely mild remarks on women's **possible** lower interest in science should have been considered a national disgrace, but wasn't. I mean, this was the President of arguably the nation's most prominent university being fired here. Compare this situation with how difficult it was to fire Ward Churchill, and that was only after his actual fraud was discovered. And who got more support from their respective faculties?
Meanwhile, there is plenty of evidence that being conservative actually and often radically reduces the chances that you will get hired on many, perhaps most, campuses, much less get tenure. Students seem to feel a lot more such pressure from leftist professers, too.
So while RD was hyperbolic, I can't say he was really that far off the mark, in my opinion. I appreciate that may conflict with or contradict your personal day-to-day experiences, which are valid to bring to the table, but the big picture is pretty clear and extremely well documented by now.
PEGGY: I don't see how having a girl on the team would ruin it. Did a woman judge ruin the Supreme Court?
HANK: Yes, and that woman's name was Earl Warren.
--King of the Hill |
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thewarden
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 11:58:46 AM
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Ken:
I agree 100%.
All I said is that the notion that professors are in an echo-chamber, unexposed to outside views is untrue. And it is. I also said that there were more liberals than conservatives on most campuses, and that the debate was more one-sided than I'd like to see, etc.
Summers did not get fired over the women comment. That was a culmination of a lot of Summers-faculty tension, and much of it was due to Harvard's particular pathologies regarding the mean of "faculty governance."
About being conservative and not being hired. Yup. It does not help at all. But in the end, careers in academia are about publishing, not politics -- it gets more complicated and we can discuss if you really want about pre-docs, post-docs, editorial boards, etc. But just like some women who fail in their professions will blame sexism and some African-Americans will blame racism, some conservative failed academics will blame politics. There is probably a grain of truth in all the accusations, but I would urge you to look upon them with precisely the same amount of skepticism you might bring to a woman professor who fails to get tenure and then claims sexism.
About students... students are cowards for the most part. They want to be able to say the most outrageous things possible and face no consequences. Well, if you put yourself out there, whether on the left or right, you have to accept that some people won't like your views and will criticize you. If you are inclined to consider that undue pressure, then so be it. I consider it part of being in a debate. This isn't nursery school. A 20-year old writing in the campus conservative paper should have the stones to stand by his views even if he gets hammered in public. You don't go whining to Michelle Malkin.
When I was 20, I wrote a piece in my campus' conservative paper in defense of "McCarthyism" -- not McCarthy per se, but rather I argued that (a) there was plenty of communist subversion and (b) that there is nothing wrong with the government trying to find out whether members of an international criminal conspiracy were aspiring to government service. I got called into the office of chairman of the department of Political Science who proceeded to berate me. But she didn't know what she was talking about in terms of the specific cases and issues at hand. I told her so. And I also told her that her behavior was inappropriate. Big deal. If I had turned into a whining wimp, I guess I could have made a career out of being a conservative victim of left-wing oppression -- I could have been Dinesh D'Souza, I guess. I didn't. I consider my path the better one. But to each his own.
So, let's just have a little perspective on things. |
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Ken HPoJ
Supreme Potentate
USA
1530 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 12:01:10 PM
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"So, let's just have a little perspective on things."
Like "Do things in moderation," this is probably one of the small handful of pieces of advice that would most improve the human race if followed.
(While I have your attention, did you get my recent e-mail? I've been having trouble dropping you a line.)
PEGGY: I don't see how having a girl on the team would ruin it. Did a woman judge ruin the Supreme Court?
HANK: Yes, and that woman's name was Earl Warren.
--King of the Hill |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 4:55:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thewarden
Having worked and taught for 10 years at an "elite" American university, and spent even more time moving among academic circles,
Well, that explains it. *g*
J/K
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 11/30/2007 4:56:43 PM |
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Food
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 6:39:51 PM
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My experience as a college student at Diablo Valley College and Cal State-East Bay has convinced me that suppression of conservative speech is real.
As for the Duke hoax, that's common. Kerri Dunn at Claremont McKenna, Paul Milecki at U-Kansas, John Daly at Warren County Comm. Col., et al. And the reaction from academia is always the same: Feign ignorance in the hope that the students will remain genuinely ignorant.
Just last month, San Francisco State University was ruled by a circuit court judge to have violated the First Amendment by imposing academic sanctions on the College Republicans after they tore up makeshift paper flags of Hezbollah and Hamas at an anti-terrorism rally. Blanket of silence everywhere.
When I myself was investigated for misconduct, I collected evidence to show that the department was creating a hostile environment for military veterans to learn in (flyers in the classroom depicting soldiers as baby-killing Nazis, perjorive antimilitary writings from department employees, etc). I had a stack of documentation over an inch high. I didn't know if it would help, but as it turns out, the chief investigator literally refused to look at it. I only got what I wanted out of the Final Hearing when I violated their screamingly suspicious mandate that I not bring a voice recorder, video recorder, or legal counsel of any kind to the hearing and sprung it on them at the conclusion of it.
So there's no way I'm gonna be convinced that academic orthodoxy is anything less than McCarthyism 2.0. |
Edited by - Food on 11/30/2007 6:40:16 PM |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2007 : 2:30:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ericb
Hollywood is vacuous no matter what ideology is the flavor of the moment there. If it all turned conservative tomorrow its politics would be just as cliched and brainless but only from a different ideological vantage point. Ideological echo chambers are a bad thing in general no matter what ideas are richocheting around in them.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
So true. The 80s action movies are a living proof of that. |
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