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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2007 : 09:31:48 AM
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quote:
I guess atheist allegory just doesn't sell at Christmas time.
But, but, but...it's got lots of big name stars and big action scenes!!
And it cost a lot of money to make!
It is unfair of you to criticize it for story content and that it might be offensive to large segments of the viewing audience. |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 12:50:34 PM
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C'on, all reviews are saying they've axed all the juicy / controversial stuff. It's obviously a rather expensive movie, and they wouldn't want to offend so many potential 'buyers'.
I did read one thread on a Spanish fundamentalist website (yep, we have some of them too) that they were going to boycott the film anyway, because if their children saw it they may want to read the books afterwards. And we all know how dangerous is for children to read and develop different ideas than their parents. Yawn.
On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if people were just tired of fantasy films. After the success of the LOTR trilogy we've been bombarded with every possible fantasy book adaptation, and I can't remember a single decent one apart from Stardust, which was clever enough to add some humour to the mix. |
Edited by - Neville on 12/09/2007 12:51:43 PM |
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 3:19:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville
C'on, all reviews are saying they've axed all the juicy / controversial stuff. It's obviously a rather expensive movie, and they wouldn't want to offend so many potential 'buyers'.
I did read one thread on a Spanish fundamentalist website (yep, we have some of them too) that they were going to boycott the film anyway, because if their children saw it they may want to read the books afterwards. And we all know how dangerous is for children to read and develop different ideas than their parents. Yawn.
Neville,
I honestly have very little interest in any fantasy book or film be it Lord of the Rings or Narnia or Harry Potter, so I just may be way off base here. I didn't even realize this series of books existed before the buzz about the movie began. But isn't it the case that the author of these books is actively bragging about their anti-religious nature and hoping that kids that read them turn against the church? J.K. Rowlings has never to my knowledge come out in support of witchcraft or Satan worship, so I admit that parents getting uptight about her books may be a bit much. But when an author admits hoping that kids reading his books realize that their church-going parents are fools or liars then I don't blame parents for getting a bit concerned. If an author of kids books came out in favor of promiscuous sex and recreational drug use and bragged that kids reading his books would develop the same attitude, wouldn’t it be reasonable for parents to worry? |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 3:42:12 PM
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I really don't want to go into a deep discussion on this topic, because, frankly, I don't plan to watch the movie nor to read the books. IMHO, though, these books shouldn't be more harmful than the Narnia series, which is well known for being a Christian allegory.
My complain was more specific than any of that. I think this particular group who plan to boycott the movie are not acting correctly, because after all the producers did what they could to make the film more palatable to Christian believers.
And speaking of this group in particular, HazteOir, they don't have an ounce of my respect. They are well known in the Spanish web scene for their lack of common sense and their nonsensical smear campaigns.
A quick visit to their message boards reveals stuff such as threads blaming Masonry of the lack of Christmas ornaments on the streets, of parents thinking their daughters are lesbians for having uttered the word "lesbian", of accusations to the government of wanting to turn their children into homosexuals by explaining in the schools homosexuality exists, threads of praise to the late dictator Francisco Franco, plus a long etc.
You can visit their website at www.hazteoir.org and see it by yourself.
I'm pretty sure among the protesters against the movie there are decent people and genuinely concerned parents, but this group in particular is in the best case a bunch of loonies, and in the worse the living proof that evolution not only exists but that in selected cases it can also work backwards. |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 3:46:25 PM
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In this particular thread, for instance...
http://www.hazteoir.org/foro/viewtopic.php?t=7819
they say that the whole child abuse scare in the U.S. involving Catholic priests is a hoax, and among the "theories" they have they suggest the victims may have seduced the priests and then sue them for the money.
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EFH
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 4:52:58 PM
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Having come back from it last night I can confirm the athist stuff appears so have been low level. It was there if you knew to look for it.
In the end what may hurt it the most is the lack of a decent editor. I'm serious there is the constant feeling that important stuff was left behind. 007 just vanishes at one point for instance, and a few plot other holes.
I think the writer might have a rather massive inferiority complex in relationship to Mr. Tolkien and Mr. Lewis. |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 6:06:07 PM
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From what I've heard, the books are well written, especially the first one. I guess the second one gets more strident in it's anti-Christianity with the third one even worse. The result of course is that the quality of the books drops the more they become polemics. Anyways, the books as a whole are supposed to be good.
Neville, so a crank Catholic group calls for a boycott. Crank groups call for boycotts all of the time. Most Christian sites I've gone to have ranged from recommending parents not to take their kids because of the atheistic underpinnings to recommending the movie is fine. Basically they've been laying out why they think the film is or isn't good for consumption from a Christian viewpoint. Other groups do the same thing from their viewpoint.
And we all know how dangerous is for children to read and develop different ideas than their parents. Yawn.
This argument always irritates me. What is the job of a parent but to develop their children in the way they see best. If I raise my children to believe that there is a God and decide not to take them to a film the crudely, although attractively, challenges that belief, how am I wrong. They just aren't ready for that level of discernment. Let's reverse the situation. What's if there is a film that glorifies murdering atheists. All of the atheists are idiots or evil (of course atheists don't have a concept of evil ;-) ). The heroine in the story struggles against the atheists and triumphs over them in the end removing their foul belief system. I bet you would see a lot of complaints about that. I also wouldn't take my children to see that either because it's probably also propaganda in a pretty package.
With regards to the movie, why do I want to support someone to spread their atheistic world view? Anyways, it sounds like the movie is mediocre at best and the PG-13 excludes the younger kid set. I predict that if the movie is decent, the real heavyweight will be National Treasure.
- While science has societal benefits, science is not a social virtue. - |
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Pip
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 9:29:44 PM
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As a Catholic, I think the Church elements that are against the movie are overreacting. As I understand it, the Church is against the movie because it might lead impressionable minds to read the books. I must admit, I haven't read the books and am Childfree, but kids reading books seems to me to be an overrated worry of parents today, I would think.
Faith that is maintained by a willful disregard or destruction of good literature is faith footered on a foundation of sand.
Pip
"These five fingers: individually they're nothing, but when I curl them together like this into a single unit, they form a weapon that is terrible to behold!" - Lucy Van Pelt |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 11:16:51 PM
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I don't think it bodes well for any belief system to get antsy and paranoid about people being exposed to the other side. And seeing as how Christianity has survived perfectly intact for two millennia I don't see why they'd be particularly worried about these books- FAR greater minds have been brought to bear on the matter and failed to convert the faithful.
Of course, one not wanting to bother exposing one's self to something they've already rejected I get. But the hue and cry about the potential damage to other "more impressionable" people- I say get over it.
BTW, I don't usually go around broadcasting this but since it might be considered relevant here I'll bring it up- I'm one of that rare and weird breed, a conservative atheist. And I have no more interest in viewing/reading these movies/books simply for the joy of hearing my side proselytized than I do any other side. Now if they were great art, maybe, but that's not the impression I'm getting.
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
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Cannon Fodder
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
Australia
176 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 02:10:14 AM
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If the studio were actually expecting the Golden Compass to do as well the Lord of the Rings movies or the Narnia movie they really weren't thinking things through. As I understand it The Dark Materials books by Pullman are a fairly well selling and generally well regarded series but nowhere well known as the Narnia or Lord of the Rings book which would have sold way more copies and are both very well established classics that people have been reading for decades- even before the movies came out I imagine most people had heard of them of them. The Harry Potter books, whilst more recent, still had huge sales before the movies came out. The Golden Compass, whilst I have heard good things from some quarters, doesn't have anywhere near that existing stature or fanbase as those other books. From the previews it looks quite generic, not that generic movies don't often do well.
It seems like we are in the middle of a glut of children's fantasy blockbuster wannabes based on various well selling children's fantasy series- The Dark is Rising, The Golden Compass, The Spiderwyck Chronicles etc. None of these books have quite the standing or popularity of the LotR, Potter or Narnia books and are probably all bloody expensive to make, so the likelyhood of them making that much money for the studios seems slim to me. |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 06:50:33 AM
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I don't think it bodes well for any belief system to get antsy and paranoid about people being exposed to the other side.
Sardu, it's not that it's an adult movie that challenges adults in their belief. It's that it's aimed at children and teens and has an atheistic underpinning. That makes parents wonder if it is acceptable entertainment for their kids. Most Christian parents accept that their kids are going to face tough questions later in life. The point is not to shelter their kids but to make sure they are prepared for those questions when the time comes. It's like learning to swim. You don't throw you kids into the deep end and hope they don't drown.
In general, Christians understand atheism far better than atheists understand Christianity or religion. BTW, I'm not making a personal claim about you, Sardu. It's just an observation that shows up time and again.
- While science has societal benefits, science is not a social virtue. - |
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RossM
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 09:21:38 AM
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While the Catholic is going nuts over The Golden Compass, it seems to me that the problem with the movie is not its attitude toward religion or the Church, but that its a confused, over produced mess of a movie. I have not seen it to really tell for sure.
rossM |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 10:58:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
Sardu, it's not that it's an adult movie that challenges adults in their belief. It's that it's aimed at children and teens and has an atheistic underpinning. That makes parents wonder if it is acceptable entertainment for their kids.
Well, that I can understand. The tone of most of the objection in that regard that I'm hearing though isn't "Let's ignore this movie that isn't in line with our values," but, "this horrible evil piece of heresy must be stopped!" I've seriously received many emails from "concerned" friends and acquaintances that amount to exactly that.
As to Christian understanding of atheism- that's not always true but to be fair most atheist/agnostics don't understand themselves! *g* (I would really classify myself as agnostic, which of course means "atheist keeping their options open.") There are a couple main camps of unbeliever; those that have arrived here by careful consideration and determined that this is the only answer that makes sense to them and follow it out of a sense of intellectual honesty and those who secretly still believe in God and have a serious ax to grind with Him. based on what I've heard of events as they unfold in the books, the author is squarely in the latter camp. If that's the case the books are more along the lines of a legitimate heresy than an atheist/agnostic work of apologetics and the people up in arms about them may actually have a point...
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
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