| Author |
 Topic  |
|
R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2007 : 3:50:56 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sardu
As to Christian understanding of atheism- that's not always true but to be fair most atheist/agnostics don't understand themselves! *g* (I would really classify myself as agnostic, which of course means "atheist keeping their options open.") There are a couple main camps of unbeliever; those that have arrived here by careful consideration and determined that this is the only answer that makes sense to them and follow it out of a sense of intellectual honesty and those who secretly still believe in God and have a serious ax to grind with Him.
Sardu,
I hope you’ll forgive me using your post as a springboard for controversy, so let me stress ahead of time that I can see from this posting that you are not the type of whom I speak and as near as I can tell neither are any of our confreres in the ministry of Jabootu.
I think your word agnostic is the most accurate way to describe the majority of irreligious or non-religious people in the U.S. Most just say about Judaism or Christianity or Buddhism or whatever – “I can’t believe this and I’m not particularly interested in it, but I’m willing to be open to certain possibilities.” At this point they just go about their lives without thinking too much more about it.
I would use the word atheist for people like this joker Pullman who wrote the book we’re speaking of. The atheist must proclaim continuously at the top of his voice that he doesn’t believe it nor would ever be stupid enough to believe it. Frankly, I see it as an affectation that fills a psychological need in some people – a way for certain people to set themselves apart from everyone else and feel themselves endowed with some kind of superior wisdom. They rail against religion to make themselves fell like one of the anointed - bringing knowledge to the unwashed masses whose only salvation lies in listening to brilliant people such as them.
For those who think I’m being too harsh, ask yourself who else devotes years of their lives to writing about things they don’t believe in? I don’t believe in the tooth fairy, but I don’t spend hours every day thinking up elaborate fantasy allegories to ridicule the tooth fairy concept. And don’t group books debunking things like astrology in this category because astrology is something that can be debated scientifically. Even were you to go there, however, again I ask where’s the seven volume fantasy opus about the evils of horoscopes? Or for that matter, where is the latest anti-horoscope best-seller blaming all the evils of the Western World on astrology. And to compare a book questioning the existence of UFOs to another atheist screed about religion is to actually point out how uninteresting atheists really are. One of their main arguments is always some variant of the non-sequitur that says basically – “I’m a brilliant scientific pointy-head that knows all about models and equations, therefore God doesn’t exist.” Sorry, but the appeal to authority works if you’re predicting the orbit of Saturn or the fertility patterns of the lumpfish not answering transcendental questions of existence.
And when they’re not appealing to their status as card-carrying brainiacs the argument is some variation of – “Kids are starving in Somalia. No God would be such a meanie, therefore He doesn’t exist.” Hmmm, why does God allow suffering in the world? What a devastating critique! No one in the entire course of human history has ever thought of that! Thank God (or the cold and indifference universe I guess) that Phillip Pullman was born to share his insight on the matter. Until he was born to point out what every college kid has hashed out over bong hits in the dorm, we would never have been delivered from religious loonies who have never thought to say word one addressing this problem in seven thousand years!
Forgive me once again for my typically brusque prose. I definitely don’t wish to point fingers to anyone here, so I hope no one has been offended by my maunderings. Unless your name is Phillip Pullman or Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens, I don’t think you have reason to. I honestly feel sad to see intelligent people like them wasting so much of their time and energy puffing up their egos by railing against people who think differently than they. |
 |
|
|
Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 4:16:39 PM
|
No, I pretty much agree with all that. I mean, without getting off into a tangent as to the details, I don't actually think there is a supreme being, at least not in the fashion the major religions say. But I'm not mad enough to say I'm absolutely sure. Yopu can't prove a negative!! And if I turn out to be as wrong and misguided as the believers think I am I'll be the first to admit I got it totally wrong. Sadly, by then it will supposedly be too late... *g* Of course, everyone I know is basically Christian, I play in a band at a church (long story *lol*) and most of my values are what would be considered Judeo-Christian ones. I just don't think they come from a God, I think they are objectively right and good all by themselves.
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 12/10/2007 4:23:06 PM |
|
|
|
Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 4:18:02 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sardu
[quote]Originally posted by Ericb
An interesting take on the film;
http://littleprofessor.typepad.com/the_little_professor/2007/12/the-golden-comp.html
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
Huh- that is interesting!
Indeed..
Regards the film and its source...Douglas Adams was an athiest, and friend of Richard Dawkins. But, he had the decency to not be pedantic or boreing about it.
Also, he did not express, at least in the Hitchhikers series, a hatefull attitude towards religious people, at least not to Dawkins extent.
I have seen that Athiest, like any other religious group, can be fearfull of having their own dogmas questioned.
Why? They are just people. And we humans are prone to finding many, many ways to express and justify the same basic emotions and attitudes.
Its just a matter of who's ox is being barbiqued on who's grill.
(Btw, anyone ever see a BBQ grill in the Tardis? Never mind...)
For me, Athiests are no different from other religions. They worship them selves, rather then a image of God that looks just like them.
I call it the difference between retail and wholesale.
Not all athiests are ugly, nor are all religious peoplke lovely inside. And for myself, I'm content to let God be the final judge. He has a lot more right and ability to do that, then I do.
I keep wanting to make a bumper sticker that says...
QUESTION...WHOS...AUTHORITY?
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
|
|
|
|
Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 06:00:55 AM
|
Hitchens is a drunk and bitter man but most of Dawkins' writing and work is in evolutionary biology not in promoting atheism. True he became well know for his recent atheist polimics but that's not the guys main work and, franky, if I had to waste as much time as he does combating the lies and distortions of creationists I would get pretty sour on religion myself.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
|
|
|
Gristle McThornbody
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
Germany
186 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 07:35:38 AM
|
quote:
For those who think I’m being too harsh, ask yourself who else devotes years of their lives to writing about things they don’t believe in?
Pretty much every fantasy, horror, sci-fi, and even romance fiction author on the planet.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!" |
Edited by - Gristle McThornbody on 12/11/2007 07:36:55 AM |
|
|
|
Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 4:21:36 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ericb
Hitchens is a drunk and bitter man but most of Dawkins' writing and work is in evolutionary biology not in promoting atheism. True he became well know for his recent atheist polimics but that's not the guys main work and, franky, if I had to waste as much time as he does combating the lies and distortions of creationists I would get pretty sour on religion myself.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
Well, a religious expression might cause those feelings, but Dawkins finally just showed his ...hummm...call it an 'emotional context', what feeling may have been driveing him, and came out when he thought it was 'safe'. When it was P.C. to express it.
Gristle : Quite true.
A story teller does not have to believe the context...theres that word again!...of a story. Its used for the sake of a familure foundation, then it can be used for the tale telling.
Zombies are not real, but they make an intresting 'what if' tale. Same with witches, Klingons, and dragons...
Hummm...a Klingon dragon witch!
Breathing fire, holding a staff with one talon, and a disruptor with the other!
Okey, Art Goons...anyone wanna illistrate THAT?
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
|
|
|
|
Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 5:19:23 PM
|
Well the last thing these atheist proselytizers are is PC (just read Hitchens on Islam). They're conservatives in their own way, old fashioned logical positivists, modernistism as opposed the PC left's postmodernism. Lefty, New Age hippie woomeisters have as little use for them as do conservative Christians.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
|
|
|
EFH
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 7:34:49 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Flangepart
Zombies are not real, but they make an intresting 'what if' tale. Same with witches, Klingons, and dragons...
Hummm...a Klingon dragon witch!
Thats at least a CR 24.
And polar bears aside, I still hold that the rather jagged story telling is going to do the most damage to Golden Compass as a series in the long run.
And you really have to be careful when poking someones religion. It can be a bit of a raw nerve and you risk it poking back.
So if you going to do it you have to be really subtle or really good. Douglas Adams was content with not doing it at all outside of maybe a few sentences. |
|
|
|
throughthelookingglass
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
47 Posts |
|
|
Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 07:13:40 AM
|
Somewhat related, has anyone read the Slacktivist's deconstruction of Left Behind? The fact that he's a Baptist and critiques it from a Christian perspective just makes his comentary, snarky and otherwise, that much more incisive.
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/index.html
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
|
|
|
Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 08:43:12 AM
|
You know, I hated the Left Behind films, but my quips were more political than religious. I mean, Satan himself working for the UN and having stop famine in his program? How sick is that?
Not that the movies don't have other faults. I could deal with the acting (which gets much better in #3) and the low budget, but whenever it was time to enter in action instead of kicking butt all the main characters would form a circle and start praying. I could live if the prayed, then kicked butt. But no. |
|
|
|
Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 08:51:36 AM
|
Actually, I was refering to the books, which may be even worse than the movies.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
|
|
|
Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 08:54:47 AM
|
Neville, check out the link I posted. You might find it amusing. Note that his recap starts at the bottom of the page.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
|
|
|
Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 08:55:33 AM
|
Yes, sorry. I had forgotten the books are said to be quite popular in The U.S.A. I don't know if they have been released in Europe, but I have seen the movies, the main state-owned channel was using them as filler at 2:00 A.M. for some reason.
Still, I'm gonna read that piece, I want to see how it deals with the issues I found more annoying. |
|
|
|
throughthelookingglass
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:30:51 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ericb
Somewhat related, has anyone read the Slacktivist's deconstruction of Left Behind? The fact that he's a Baptist and critiques it from a Christian perspective just makes his comentary, snarky and otherwise, that much more incisive.
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/index.html
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
I just started to take a look at it, and there was a Swirling Eddies reference in the second post (from the bottom). Nice. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Forum Locked
Topic Locked