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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
 Posted - 12/24/2007 : 10:55:48 AM
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Well, I addressed that on the last page... it's a matter of parsing words IMO. Belief in anything is a dicey affair. It all works on an algorithmic curve, getting closer and closer to 100% but never reaching it. My belief that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow is strong. 99.9999999999+ %. But, you never know. My belief against God is currently high, in the neighborhood of 98%. So, where does that put me; where's the category cutoff?? If the gold standard of true atheism is unshakable faith in the non-existence of God analogous to that of the most fervent Christian (of the opposite), Muslim or Jew then yes, I doubt there are very many.
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 12/24/2007 10:56:43 AM |
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Food
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2007 : 11:11:02 AM
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What is your 98% figure based on? I would think the existence of the universe would automatically start the odds squarely at 50%.
And you are mistaken about the number of atheists who are as unshakable as any other religious faith. Come out to my neck of the woods, there are more than you realize. |
Edited by - Food on 12/24/2007 11:12:11 AM |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2007 : 11:51:38 AM
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Well, my 98% figure is an approximation I make for the sake of argument based on the conclusions I've reached over a lifetime of thinking about it, which I'll not drag the thread down with- Google will get you 1,000,000 hits of arguments from both sides, some sound and most ridiculous-I don't feel like adding to it in a very nice, civil thread. The existence of the universe proves nothing; any argument that can explain God's existence can be applied to the universe. Is it eternal?? Does it oscillate in and out of existence? Does it have another, outside creator even further up the ladder? And then, where did THAT come from?? When I play The Sims I often wonder if the little simulated people in my pc ponder these same questions *lol*
And I still say the loud, protesting atheists out there like the ones you apparently live around are all closet theists, every one of them, all mad at the creator they so loudly deny... real atheists/agnostics are as at peace with the notion as they are with death and taxes *g*
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 12/24/2007 11:52:16 AM |
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Food
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2007 : 12:34:56 PM
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| My lifetime of thinking about it leads me to the conclusion that the correct figure is 50%. The only way to know anything beyond that is to know what the conditions were that lead to the creation of the universe. For an atheist to claim that it could not have been the work of a god is every bit as much of a leap of faith as a member of any other religion claiming that is was. |
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TimLehnerer
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2007 : 1:31:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Food
Atheism is a faith every bit as much as any religion. In the absence of any conclusive evidence that god does not exist, any certainty that god doesn't exist must therefore automatically be a matter of faith.
Well, you've convinced me. I believe in Allah now, because I haven't not proved his existence to your satisfaction. |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2007 : 1:36:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Food
My lifetime of thinking about it leads me to the conclusion that the correct figure is 50%.
I'm OK with that *g*
quote:
The only way to know anything beyond that is to know what the conditions were that lead to the creation of the universe. For an atheist to claim that it could not have been the work of a god is every bit as much of a leap of faith as a member of any other religion claiming that is was.
That's true but again I don't think most atheists are concerned with that. Generally we're reacting on the notion of God as an entity that is directly concerned in the affairs of humans. Anyone who makes absolute pronouncements on the origins of the universe is (IMHO) just flapping their gums uselessly.
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2007 : 6:49:36 PM
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BTW I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative. It's a subject I can enjoy discussing in the right circumstances but I don't want to foment discontent and controversy, especially on a happy occasion!!
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
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Cannon Fodder
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
Australia
176 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 11:00:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Food
My lifetime of thinking about it leads me to the conclusion that the correct figure is 50%. The only way to know anything beyond that is to know what the conditions were that lead to the creation of the universe. For an atheist to claim that it could not have been the work of a god is every bit as much of a leap of faith as a member of any other religion claiming that is was.
I don't see the logic to that. Unless there is direct evidence to suggest that it was the work of god why should that theory be given any particular credence? It seems more a case of choosing not go with a particular theory because little or nothing to back it up. I honestly don’t know much about the subject but I'm sure people could come up with an infinite number of theory regarding something like the creation of the universe but unless there is strong reason to go with any one of them why should anyone? It's not a leap of faith it's a small step of thought. What kind of bothers me about this kind of argument and others I've come across in such debates, not accuse Food or anyone here specifically of this, is a kind of assumption that believing in god, or Allah or whatever, is kind of a default way of thinking and that those don't believe have to justify it or are just being contrary. |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 11:32:10 PM
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Plus no theory, even god, ever frees you from that mind-numbing question of "OK, but what happened before THAT?" The only thing the human mind can do is fall back on some kind of "God/the universe/what-have-you is eternal and always was and has been." OK, but what does that MEAN? Really? How can it be? It's all just words we say to try and avoid the paradox of something that simply lies outside our linear ability to relate to such questions. It's a cop-out to say "God can exist beyond time because He's God and that's why He could make the universe." To me that's just circular logic that doesn't mean anything. Heck, it may even be true but it may also be true that the universe cycles in and out of existence eternally, of that we're a bubble made by the destruction of another parallel universe in another dimension, or that there actually was NOTHING before the universe. Now there's a weird thought.
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 12/26/2007 11:32:51 PM |
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