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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
 Posted - 12/26/2007 : 09:32:38 AM
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Wow, a "We're bigger than Jesus!" for the new generation. I think I actually understand where he was going with the comment, he just expressed it horrendously. If he's saying that evil people don't see themselves as evil, he's probably right. It doesn't change the fact that they ARE twisted and evil though. I don't care if the broken machine doesn't know it's broken. Throw it on the scrapheap.
It will be interesting to see if he manages an apology that makes the situation even worse, ala John Lennon...
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 12/26/2007 09:33:01 AM |
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Nlneff
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 10:27:55 AM
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Basically his comment was accurate. Hitler viewed murdering Jews, Gypsies, Russians etc as no more wrong then killing rats. Indeed he viewed it as a positive necessary thing. His second point was that Hitler was basically redeemable. While I'd disagree, simply believing that all Humans can be good, can be redeemed is not a bad thing to believe. Perhaps naive.
Poorly stated though, you need to be careful talking about that stuff.
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hbrennan
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Philippines
1455 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 10:42:05 AM
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Yes, it was poorly stated, but an understandable comment. Few architects of "the Final Solution" thought of themselves as evil. That's one of the very definitions of "insane" (especially in Hitler's case). As far as being "redeemable"? In this case - no. Though, if one had to point a finger at one of those architects that was most likely aware enough to know that they were committing an atrocious evil - it would be Heinrich Himmler. Rule of thumb - if you are a high profile person, avoid references to Nazis that include even a hint of positiveness.
"...yet it hadn't destroyed his brain."
re: Charles "The Butcher" Benton (1956)
http://www.henrybrennan.com/
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Edited by - hbrennan on 12/26/2007 11:02:49 AM |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 7:01:43 PM
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I disagree. I thnk a person knows when he has descended into the depths. They must be aware that on some level what they are doing lacks any legitimacy.
It is that astonishing capacity to both not care that you have and to enjoy the purely selfish enjoyment of the power that makes people like Hitler possible. And you have to believe that the ends justifies the means.
Nobody, I don't think, is ever "ignorant" of just how awful their means are. They are willing to either pay (or let others pay) that price.
I use for example the rapidity with which many in the Soviet hierarchy abandoned communism as quickly as they could in 1991. You don't suppose they just had an epiphany one day in April of 1991, do you? That they all of a sudden realized they were in the wrong? No. They were obviously aware of their lack of legitimacy for quite some time before that.
I have had to deliver more than one "Rules of War" briefing to soldiers over the years. After spending the required time telling them about the regulations regarding their conduct in war, towards prisoners, etc., I usually break it down this way.
If you are about to do something that if your family at home was to hear about and be ashamed of you for doing it, don't do it.
Guys like Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot were not raised in some amoral vacuum. They merely had the ability to turn off their conscience. |
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Gristle McThornbody
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
Germany
186 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 01:31:22 AM
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Smith says he was misquoted/taken out of context:
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318219,00.html[/url]
I think I believe him.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!" |
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 09:04:09 AM
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This happens so bizarrely often that it must give publicists perpetual heartburn. As HB said, the rule a public figure needs to take to heart is simple – DON'T TALK ABOUT HITLER! Nothing that the likes of Will Smith says about Hitler can possibly add to the sum total of human knowledge. And as soon as you open your mouth on the topic, there’s at least a 50/50 chance that you’ll end up saying something dumb.
This is a classic case in point. Even if Hitler was deluded to the point that he thought some of the things he was doing were good – who the h@#l cares? I’m sure he worked late at the bunker every night making sure all his execution orders were up to date too. What difference does that make? Should we admire his drive and good intentions? If only he could have been reprogrammed so that his energy could have been used for niceness instead of evil.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Get_Smart
At least Smith’s comments are a lot more defensible than some but the next time his thoughts turn to Hitler, he needs to hold his tongue. |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 11:11:35 AM
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quote:
the next time his thoughts turn to Hitler, he needs to hold his tongue.
or at least lower the Cone of Silence before he says anything.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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Culfy
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
United Kingdom
113 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 12:05:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by R. Dittmar
At least Smith’s comments are a lot more defensible than some but the next time his thoughts turn to Hitler, he needs to hold his tongue.
Is this just Will Smith who should hold his tongue on Hitler or all actors/celebrities? What about actors who are directly concerned with films/plays about Hitler? Should Noah Taylor have held his tongue when he was interviewed about what it was like to play Hitler in Max? Should Mel Brooks never answer any questions over maybe trivialising the holocaust in The Producers? Should we perhaps stop making any films at all about the second world war in order to prevent this happening?
Or perhaps we should just put a ban on actors being prevented from speaking on any matter which might possibly be considered in any way controversial and make them cofine their topics of conversation to box office returns; in which case we then all turn around and criticise them for being air-headed bimbos with no thoughts of their own at all, so everyone wins.
I do sort of understand where you are coming from; Hitler has been the subject of many an ill-considered remark especially from people who should know better such as Bryan Ferry and David Bowie. I just haven't yet got to the stage where I think people should be stopped from expressing an opinion on any potentially controversial remark.
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Notes from a small cavy
www.culfy.blogspot.com |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 12:43:04 PM
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Nobody is suggesting that people be prohibited from making fools of themselves by talking of such things.
Still, it is a worthwhile suggestion that weighty matters like evil, the Holocaust, Hitler, etc., cannot be given the seriousness they deserve in a 20 second soundbyte you deliver to thronging reporters surrounding you as you make your way from your limo to the hotel lobby.
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 12:50:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Culfy
I do sort of understand where you are coming from; Hitler has been the subject of many an ill-considered remark especially from people who should know better such as Bryan Ferry and David Bowie. I just haven't yet got to the stage where I think people should be stopped from expressing an opinion on any potentially controversial remark.
You've got me all wrong! The world would be a much more somber and unhappy place were celebrities to stop saying stupid things to make fun of! By all means let them continue to provide us with amusement by speaking on any boneheaded topic that strikes their fancy.
I’m just trying to look at things from the side of the celebrities and/or their handlers. You’d think that they would have learned by now to steer clear of the subject after seeing so many other fellow celebs embarrassed by the dumb things they’ve said about the Nazis or Hitler. It’s just not something that you need to bring up in casual conversations, but it seems they just can’t help themselves.
Actually, it’s even funnier when politicians do it. You’d think they’d be the last ones to want to go on the record as Hitler apologists, but they still do it frighteningly often. Remember a few years back when Arnold was running for governor and they turned up some crazy quotes of his from back in his bodybuilding days? It’s like a weird exception to the old rule – “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”. For Hitler that should read – “If you want to say something nice about Hitler, then don’t say anything at all.”
Surely, somewhere on the internet is a list of dumb things celebrities have said about Hitler. After all there’s this:
http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/cgi-bin/seigmiaow.pl |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 2:24:55 PM
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Hitler is just PR suicide, saying bad things about him doesn't win you any brownie points and saying anything that can be construed as being even faintly positive will get you in the hot seat. Why bother?
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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hbrennan
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Philippines
1455 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 2:43:53 PM
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Citizen Carrier wrote:
quote:
I disagree. I think a person knows when he has descended into the depths. They must be aware that on some level what they are doing lacks any legitimacy.
Really? Tell that to the members of the many religious jihads over the centuries. Even setting that aside, one who is steeped in insanity can truly believe they are justified and believe that all means necessary to remove the "taint" are quite legitimate.
However, I will say, that as an actor, if you don't have a personal link to the holocaust or are involved in a production depicting Nazis, it's best to leave the subject alone.
"...yet it hadn't destroyed his brain."
re: Charles "The Butcher" Benton (1956)
http://www.henrybrennan.com/
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Edited by - hbrennan on 12/27/2007 2:53:27 PM |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 4:57:24 PM
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Strictly speaking, even jihadists must overlook tenets of their faith that rule against killing innocent people. They do not do this accidentally.
"Accepting" that the ends justifies the means DOES NOT mean that you are unaware or ignorant that what you are doing is wrong.
You are quite aware that it is wrong. You merely accept that it's wrongness is an acceptable cost. |
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hbrennan
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Philippines
1455 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 5:24:54 PM
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Citizen Carrier wrote:
quote:
Strictly speaking, even jihadists must overlook tenets of their faith that rule against killing innocent people. They do not do this accidentally.
That's if you are allowed to know what the tenents of your faith actually are. How many "crusades" have been undertaken to "exterminate the infidel" based upon the preaching that God, himself, has ordered the "extermination". In that case you are taught that there are no such thing as the "innocents". Grim, yes, but true. In those cases, you don't even need the insanity precursor (except, maybe on the part of the instigator) to set the killing in motion. (Although I will allow that the originators may be cognizant of their evil - but their followers may not be)
"...yet it hadn't destroyed his brain."
re: Charles "The Butcher" Benton (1956)
http://www.henrybrennan.com/
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Edited by - hbrennan on 12/27/2007 5:30:45 PM |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 5:52:25 PM
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I suppose I must modify my position a little.
The difference between the jihadists and the crusaders and most people is that they were raised in a world where such atrocities were condoned. They were exposed to this indoctrination from birth.
That would undoubtedly make it easier to justify your actions.
Hitler and the Germans of the 1930s cannot realistically claim to have been raised, as modern Western Europeans predominantly of Catholic and Protestant faiths, in an atmosphere that condoned what they did.
They had to break from their upbringing in a significant way. |
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