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hbrennan
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Philippines
1455 Posts |
 Posted - 12/27/2007 : 6:34:41 PM
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quote:
Citizen Carrier wrote:
Hitler and the Germans of the 1930s cannot realistically claim to have been raised, as modern Western Europeans predominantly of Catholic and Protestant faiths, in an atmosphere that condoned what they did.
This is true with the possible exception of the very young in the brainwashed "Hitler-Jugend" ("Hitler Youth"). This leaves only insanity as a understandable (not justifiable, of course) motivating factor. That, of course, is a break from a lot more than one's upbringing.
"...yet it hadn't destroyed his brain."
re: Charles "The Butcher" Benton (1956)
http://www.henrybrennan.com/
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 8:50:06 PM
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My interpretation of "evil" is when you KNOW that what you are doing is wrong, but you just don't CARE.
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 9:09:10 PM
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It also happens to be a common interpretation of sanity in a court of law.
I remember reading once that a guy who had walked into an office and shot up the place, killing people, attempted to plead the insanity defense.
Either the judge or the prosecutor, I can't remember which, asked the defendent how he concealed his firearm when traveling to the scene of the crime.
The criminal told the court how he concealed it.
The insanity defense was thrown out.
If you have the presence of mind to HIDE your gun, you must be aware that having it visible would tend to create panic in those around you. You have to know that you are about to do something wrong, but that you don't want the cat out of the bag until you've started the shooting.
An "insane" person wouldn't care who saw him.
Pretty sound reasoning to me.
It is also worth noting that the Nazis did attempt to hide some of their Holocaust atrocities. Sobibor, the site of the most successful concentration camp uprising, was soon closed after the revolt. Himmler had the camp closed, dismantled, and planted over with trees.
He wanted to erase it's memory.
Again, if he didn't really believe what was being done at Sobibor was "evil" by any generally accepted norms, I doubt he would've sent in the tree planters to try and hide the location.
Treblinka was leveled and planted over with lupins. Belzec firs and lupins.
The most extensive attempt to hide the mass graves was called Sonderaktion 1005.
Will Smith is wrong. Guys like Hitler DID wake up each day wondering what horrible thing they could perpetrate upon helpless people.
And that they had the sense to at least try to hide what they did from advancing Soviet and Allied armies strongly suggests that they knew they were the bad guys.
Something I heard Glenn Beck say on the radio one time about the Nazis.
Basically, if your side is running around in black uniforms with little silver skull emblems on them...aren't you perhaps going to wonder if maybe, just MAYBE...your side isn't the "good guys"? |
Edited by - Citizen Carrier on 12/27/2007 9:26:03 PM |
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Nlneff
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 9:28:34 PM
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I think there is a disconnect here. Suggesting that Hitler thought he was doing what in his own twisted mind was "right" does not absolve him of blame or moral culpability of what he did. Not to me anyway. Virtually all criminals feel justified in some way in what they do.
Nor do I believe that attempting to hide evidence of said actions means anything other then having a sense of self preservation. For example, after the Rape of Nanking, the Japanese government actually flat out admitted to various war crimes, basically because it couldn't believe anyone would care about killing Chinese, after all Japan viewed them as subhuman, murdering them was a good thing. After tremendous public outcry, Japan learned to be more discrete about murdering Chinese, not because they thought they were wrong (They didn't) but because they knew the international reaction would be bad. Knowing other people think what you are doing is wrong doesn't mean you think its wrong. From the perspective of Japan's leaders, the outside world was a bunch of Naive idiots that didn't understand the need to butcher people for the good of Japan. Its sick, twisted and depressing, but I see no point in denying it.
Or to flip the question around, would concealing evidence that you had hid a Jewish family from the Nazi's be evidence that you thought it was wrong to do so? Or just that it would get you killed?
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Nlneff
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 9:56:11 PM
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| The above comments refer to the Japanese government specifically, there were indeed many Japanese who protested the actions of Imperial Japan. |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 10:05:52 PM
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I may not be able to articulate this thought as well as I want to, but I am reminded of an old Arab saying.
Essentially, a man living alone in the desert may feel guilt, but not shame.
Guilt is a personal thing. Either you feel it or you don't.
Shame is something that is imposed upon us through the disapproval of our community. That is where I believe our concepts of order come from. We are not willing to endure the disapproval of our peers. At least most of us aren't. Indeed, Germany since WWII has felt that shame so deeply that they've outlawed even the display of emblems from that period.
I believe that in the case or World War II, shame entered into the equation for attempting to hide the worst elements of the Holocaust.
Himmler was afraid that if Sobibor and Treblinka came to light the world would...what?
Execute him?
I assure you, even without the Holocaust coming to light, a hanging was definitly on the Soviet menu for guys like Himmler. Few in the Nazi hierarchy were going to be allowed to die of old age and they knew it. Hitler committed suicide not because he was afraid the Russians were going to be angry about the concentration camps.
And yet, still the desperate attempts to conceal what they'd done... |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 10:38:04 PM
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Evil falls generally into three camps, it would seem: either a sociopath who knows the difference between right and wrong and doesn't give a crap, someone who believes that the end justifies the means (i.e., you are doing things wrong in and of themselves but serving a greater good)- this tends to include a lot of freedom fighter, crusader and warrior types (not all of course)- and those who cannot tell the difference between right and wrong and are thus judged clinically insane. Was Hitler one of these, or a combination of all three? And how does one judge him accordingly?? I'm glad it's not up to me to decide.
Actually, there is probably a fourth category- those who are generally good but fall into an insanity of despair or passion and commit heinous acts of passion.
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 12/27/2007 10:40:19 PM |
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Cannon Fodder
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
Australia
176 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2007 : 01:12:21 AM
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I guess without having a direct insight into Hitler's mind none of us will ever know. I'm more inclined to think he and the Nazis did think in their own minds their atrocities were worthy deeds even if it was a matter of them repeating their own justifications and dogma over and over in their own minds so they truly believed what they were doing was the correct thing. The human capacity for self justification can cover just about any dirty deed or atrocity. But this is purely speculation. I don't think anybody will ever truly know what was going through the head of Hitler or any other Nazis or human monsters from the past. It's hard enough knowing what's going on inside the head of people who are alive today or even people you actually know let alone say for sure or with any real degree of authority what was going on in the head of some historical figure dead for sixty years or longer.
Given the subject matter I wonder if anyone has entitled a report or an article on Smith's remarks "The Triumph of the Will"
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2007 : 11:53:48 AM
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Setting aside existential questions on the nature of evil for a minute, here is something I did not know about Will Smith:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22088489/
Germany actively bans Scientology as a cult, and Will Smith prattles on about "reprogramming" Hitler. There might be more to this flap than meets the eye. |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2007 : 12:06:57 PM
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So, the Bible has stuff in it on Xenu, the Marcab confederacy and billions of thetans being stored in volcanoes? I must have missed those parts.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2007 : 12:14:41 PM
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A few pertinant historical facts:
Often, when our solders captured German troops, they would announce "we are regular army, not SS!" They may not have know what was going on in the concentration camps, but they knew what was going on at the front!
The skull and cross bones worn by the SS was taken from the old Prussian "Life Guards". I'm not sure if the "life" part ment you enlisted for LIFE or if you swore to lay down your life for the Kaiser.
DC comics had to change a Wonder Woman comic to sell in Germany because it had a swastika on the cover!
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
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Capt. Nemo
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
630 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2007 : 9:35:44 PM
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There is another episode of the Holocaust that upholds the view that the Nazis knew what they were doing was wrong.
[url="http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTML/Wannsee.html"]The Wannsee Conference[/url]
Before the conference, the Holocaust up to that point had been a hap hazard affair. The orders to exterminate the Jews had gone out. But different sections of the chain of command were more or less going at it alone. Coming up with there own ideas on how to get it done. This was inefficient. So a conference was held to pull the Holocaust together as a well oiled Jew killing machine.
The conference was held and minutes were released. The minutes were "sanitized" to only have language that acceptable to the Nazi regime. Here were some of the changes:
"...eliminated by natural causes," refers to death by a combination of hard labor and starvation.
"...treated accordingly," refers to execution by SS firing squads or death by gassing - also seen in other Nazi correspondence in a variety of connotations such as "special treatment" and "special actions" regarding the Jews.
[url="http://www.holocaust-history.org/short-essays/wannsee.shtml"]Wannsee Conference Minutes[/url]
One has to wonder why people who thought they were doing good and were in an innocent state of mind would NEED to "sanitize" this document.
Adolph Eichman offers one clue:
For example, Adolph Eichmann was asked, "Was it difficult for you to send these tens of thousands of people their death?" Eichmann replied, "To tell you the truth, it was easy. Our language made it easy." Asked to explain, Eichmann said, "My fellow officers and I coined our own name for our language. We called it amtssprache -- 'office talk.'"
[url="http://prorev.com/wannsee.htm"]Minutes of the Wannsee Conference[/url]
In other words, they created their own reality that would deny what they were doing. If they thought what they were doing was acceptable, there would be no need to do this.
This, unfortunately, has given the holocaust deniers wiggle room. Because the Nazis used this "language" and never gave out written orders that bluntly said "KILL THESE PEOPLE," the deniers point this out as lack of evidence on the part of the Jews.
Of course, that's a misrepresentation. Besides, if the photos, testimony of concentration camp survivors and guards, documentation of Zyclon-B orders, and films of Ike himself touring the extermination camps doesn’t convince you, nothing will.
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"Ward, the Beaver blew up the 7-11 again."
"I'll have a talk with him Dear" |
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Capt. Nemo
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
630 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2007 : 9:50:01 PM
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And while we are talking about it...
I would ask Will about [url="http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/05/31/tom-cruise-slams-brooke-shields.htm"]Tom's slamming of Brooke Shields over her medical use of anti-depressants[/url] and saying that all she needs are vitamins.
I'm fuzzy on Sheild's case, but I'm sure some people NEED anti-depressants to lead healthy lives. By shoving some delusion on to people who really need these treatments, you are robbing them of their their ability to lead normal lives. And maybe put other people's lives in jepordy. How do you reconcile THAT, Will?
That's dangerous.
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"Ward, the Beaver blew up the 7-11 again."
"I'll have a talk with him Dear" |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2007 : 10:28:41 PM
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Indeed.
While one could make the argument that the physical attempts to cover up places like Sobibor and Treblinka stemmed from a desire to "not get caught", you could hardly argue that they used euphemisms among themselves because they were afraid other people in their offices would overhear them talking about gassing Jews.
Everybody in those offices knew what they were in the business of doing. They were avoiding language that forced them to confront, daily, exactly what they were doing. |
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Culfy
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
United Kingdom
113 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2007 : 05:02:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Nemo
And while we are talking about it...
I would ask Will about [url="http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/05/31/tom-cruise-slams-brooke-shields.htm"]Tom's slamming of Brooke Shields over her medical use of anti-depressants[/url] and saying that all she needs are vitamins.
I'm fuzzy on Sheild's case, but I'm sure some people NEED anti-depressants to lead healthy lives. By shoving some delusion on to people who really need these treatments, you are robbing them of their their ability to lead normal lives. And maybe put other people's lives in jepordy. How do you reconcile THAT, Will?
I have come across this belief before, not only with scientistologists but with certain 'New Age' types that Big Pharma is dangerous and doctors only want to treat you with 'Chemicals' rather than natural remedies (despite the fact that practically any substance is made up of chemicals).
Of course - life expectancy rates were SO much higher when we only had natural remedies to use, weren't they? Er, weren't they?
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Notes from a small cavy
www.culfy.blogspot.com |
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