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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
 Posted - 04/21/2008 : 4:26:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ericb
A madman's abuse of an idea doesn't invalidate the idea itself nor does it make it any less true.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
True, but that still depends on the idea. Hence, you're statment also applys to religious as well as secular concepts.
Margret Sanger wanted to remove the 'lower orders', and thought encouraging abortions among those she did not approve of should be encouraged. She took it that far.
Hitler and his cabal saw her as an 'idealistic fellow traveller.' They had little moral restraint, and the power to enforce those ideas. Then went farther then Sanger had envisioned.
As is a habit with men, they decided who they liked, and said to hell with the rest.
How they rationalised it all, was one of many such things.
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
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Edited by - Flangepart on 04/21/2008 4:28:57 PM |
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 4:29:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ericb
quote:
No, I said one of many. Its a long struggle with reason
Yes, but do you think Martin Luther's raving anti-semitism invalidates the Protestant Reformation?
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
I don't know enough about the the P.R. to say, so I'll let that part go. I would wager, that what good it did, was in spite of such thoughts, not because of them.
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 05:51:47 AM
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quote:
As is a habit with men, they decided who they liked, and said to hell with the rest.
How they rationalised it all, was one of many such things.
So too Christianity. You have the Albegensian Crusade, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade ) the Inquistion, witch burnings, the Thirty Years War, etc. Perhaps ideas should stand on their own merits and truthfulness rather than on how politicians twist them. In any event Darwin's theory was about NATURAL selection as it occures in nature over vast period of time. There is nothing in his writings about using breeding methods (which, in any event, had been used on plants and animals for millenia) to "improve" human beings.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 06:39:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ericb
BTW, there were Christians who supported eugenics as well:
http://www.ethicsandmedicine.com/18/2/18-2-durst.htm
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
[Font=Ariel]I never said Darwin believed in the 'breeding' of humans. You made that assumption.
His work was 'reconfigured' in the minds of the Nazis, to say what they wanted it to.
As for the Eugenics supporters mentioned in your post...I should respect them?
Evil can be rationalised just as easily with Evolutionary trappings as any other. The failings of other groups do not change that. They must answer for themselves. Yes, I am aware of the failings of 'christians'...So?
My point is that men can do foolish things by any reasoning they choose. You will not defend the theory of Evolution avoiding the effects of that common human fault.
[/font=Arial]
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 07:04:59 AM
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I'm not sure what you are trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that one should not judge ideas by how people twist them. If you are going to blame Darwin for the Holocaust you better have a better argument than the filmakers make. I find this especially aggravating as Christianity had a far, far greater role in promoting hatred of Jews than Darwin. Hell Christianity pretty much invented anti-Semitism (they were certainly the first group to focus on Jews for "special" treatment. In the examples of oppression from the Old Testesement and Roman times they were simple treated like any other conquered peoples, brutally of course but they were not singled out). How can you read Luther's tract and still believe that Darwin had a greater role in the Holocaust than Christian inspired anti-semitism? The majority of Germans who let the Holocaust happen were not "Darwinists" they were Christian. Nazis went marching through Europe with "God is With Us" stamped into their belt buckles.
http://blog.darwincentral.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/buckled.jpg
Are you willing to abandon Christianity because of this? If not, why?
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 07:10:47 AM
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In any event, what the Nazis and Eugenicists did with Darwin's ideas have absolutely nothing to do with whether they are true on not.
My point with the Evangelical article was to point out the peolpe who supported eugenics were not all Darwinists. Since there were Christians among them one should search for another inspiration for the movement.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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nshumate
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
464 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 08:51:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Flangepart
A materialistic view has no answers. We live and die for no reason, except what we make up for our own.
The evolutionary view is cold and pointless. And pityless.
That's only when one takes evolutionary biology and extrapolates from it (without warrant, I would say) an antitheistic religious philosophy, as Dawkins and other famous antitheists do. But it's not a necessary correlation with the idea of descent with modification, any more than belief in gravitation as the warp of spacetime by mass somehow negates the idea of God.
As evidence, I introduce myself. I accept evolution as the best possible explanation of the fossil record and the existing diversity and specific morphologies of life forms on earth. I am also a very devoted believer in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. I have little trouble reconciling the two -- certainly less trouble than young earth creationists or biblical inerrantists have in reconciling the world they see around them.
I find the postulates of Intelligent Design to be scientifically spurious, mainly because "irreducible complexity" and similar lynchpins of the movement are nothing more than a refined version of the "God of the Gaps" -- that if we cannot understand or conceive of how a particular biological structure came about, it must have been designed.
Frankly, I see the entire movement as a whole (not maligning any laymen who have come to believe it, of course) as an expression not of strong faith, but of WEAK faith -- of desperate theists seeking anywhere for God's fingerprints, like the crowds who appear whenever something that looks like the Virgin Mary appears in the bark of a maple tree or a piece of toast. If the fingerprints of God aren't on your soul, you can't compensate by searching for them in fossils or your toaster.
I believe in divine purpose. I believe, if you will, in an Intelligent Designer, despite thinking that most "evidences" of ID are a conclusion looking for supporting proof. I certainly don't see enough scientific rigor in ID adherents to support making questionable claims of irreducible complexity based on bacterial phalanges and mousetrap metaphors.
Nathan Shumate
http://www.coldfusionvideo.com |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 4:44:02 PM
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How can you read Luther's tract and still believe that Darwin had a greater role in the Holocaust than Christian inspired anti-semitism? central.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/buckled.jpg
Are you willing to abandon Christianity because of this? If not, why?
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
[/quote]You said I believed that, I did not. I did not say it was greater role, R:E: Darwin, only a part of it. Why did you jump to that conclusion?
Christians who fail to live up th the teaching of Christ, will answer for it, in particular, when they do bad things in his name. He has only so much tolerance for 'Identity Stealing'. I know this, and have to correct my course accordingly, every day.
You live your life, I live mine. What comes of it, time will tell.
I do not hate you. I disagree with a particular world view. If that offends you, please understand, that I've been in the same place...just on the other end of the shooting gallery.
Which is my point.
Your propensity to point immediatly to the failing of religious people reminds me of folks who think of intellectuals as 'eggheads', ect. Fred Phellps and Richard Dawkins are more alike in attitude then either know, or would like to know.
Same emotions, different reasons for them.
That is the kind of thing that worries me.
Nathan : I do not have a ''young Earth' belief, nor does my Church. The Earth is old. It just had some work done on it, when man was added to the mix.
My thought is this.
The universe is vast and complex. It demands explination.
I see the weakness of human reason something to take into account for searching for those explinations.
I'd not be thought a 'typical christian' by many who go by that description.
.its a long story, and we need not go into that.
I do see a plan, and man is not the creator of it, nor does he understand it better then a normal five year old understands the aviation industry.
There is nothing I can do regards how others see the universe. I accept that.
So...I can only watch, and learn what I can from this life.
This life is not all there is.
The dead have a future...and everybody is going to be suprised in how it works out.
That is my hope.
If I am worng, I won't know it when I die, as I'll have ceased to exist...utterly.
If I am right...We will all answer for our lives to a higher power, who will answer all our questions about Life, The Universe, and Everything else.
What else can I say?
Sooo...I'm going to let this all drop.
Arguments solve nothing, and make dinner a cause for antacids.
Heres hopeing all goes well for all involved.
Your friend in the " Dislexic Agnostic Insommniac" T-shirt...Flange.
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 4:45:57 PM
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P.S.
Is anyone else as astounded at my longwindedness as I am?
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
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nshumate
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
464 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 6:39:11 PM
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Flange,
Wasn't trying to argue with you on your beliefs. I just wanted to point out that there is no necessary conflict between science and spirit. I don't look to biological science, or any science, for meaning or metaphysical answers; nor have I found acceptance of evolution as fact to be conflict with a rich and faithful spiritual life.
Nathan Shumate
http://www.coldfusionvideo.com |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 06:11:24 AM
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Ugh, this will be my last word. Flange I think you are misunderstanding what I was trying to say by bringing up Christian atrocities. I wasn't trying to blame Christianity for anything or simply bringing up Christian "bad guys" to compensate for non-Christian "bad guys". What I was trying to say, and evidently failing, was that there is no such thing as a pristine and uncorruptable idea, that any idea can be mangled by politicians for evil ends. Blame the Nazis for the Holocaust, not Darwin but if you want to bring Darwin into it to share the blame you will also have to bring in Christianity as well or you are being intellectually dishonest. Which is what the makers of this film are. I may not be Christian but I do have a low opinion of dishonesty and there is mounds of information out there on just how dishonest the ID movement has been. They distort scientific theories and create strawmen arguments, quote scientists out of context to give the illusion that they don't accept evolution (a practice called "quote mining"), have their argument refuted in one debate but simply repeat them afterwards to other audiences that don't know they have been refuted and other assorted trickery. Frankly their tactics are one with identity politics groups on the left such as Afro-centrists Feminists. Those groups often fall back on Post-Modernist relativism when they are confronted with facts that contradict their revisionist histories. Isn't that basically what is meant by "world view," that there is no way to objectively weight evidence? And since there is not objective way to look at the evidence all views should be given equal time? I don't now about you but I beleive their is an ojective reality that we can all try to understand.
In any even Flange, I was not trying to insult your faith (and I'm sorry if I did) I'm just exasperated that so many people with good intentions are falling for the lies of charlatans.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 08:46:40 AM
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This guy says it better:
"Of course the use of the Reductio ad Hitlerum argument also opens up other possible contributing factors to the Holocaust to criticism. One could make a much more compelling case that nearly two thousand years of traditional Christian antisemitism played a far more central role in the lead up to the Holocaust than evolutionary theory.
The fact that Christians have been persecuting and killing Jews for millennia doesn’t disprove Christianity any more than the fact that the Nazis used a bastardization of evolutionary theory to justify their barbarity disproves evolution."
from: http://pigeonchess.wordpress.com/2008/04/22/expelleds-intelligent-design-theory-this-is-your-daddys-creationism-part-i/
Flange, again, I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I was attacking your faith. I wasn't rying to.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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Asta Kask
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Sweden
263 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 12:18:24 PM
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The movie implies very strongly that Darwin and his ideas were strong factors in the Holocaust. In particular, they blame this on materialism. It is ironic, then, that the NSDAP represented themselves as True Christians and saw as one of their tasks to fight against "Jewish materialism."
They also blame Darwin for Stalin and the Gulag. However, the Soviet Union explicitly rejected Darwin's theory of evolution as a "reification of capitalist society" and pushed for some form of Lamarckianism instead.
There are two possibilities here. The film makers are either ignorant, which is bad when you are making a documentary. Or they are dishonest, which may be even worse.
Any Christian who goes to see the movie should remember Luke 16:10 - "[...] he who is dishonest in a very small matter is dishonest in a great one also."
- Who is John Galt? - |
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