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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
 Posted - 12/01/2005 : 07:00:23 AM
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Jedimom, I looked through the list provided at the tolerance.org website. The items listed happened within 9 months of 9/11. In a country of close to 300 million people, the list is surprisingly small. Also, at least one of the incidents, "A Muslim student at Arizona State University was attacked," was later determined to have been staged by the student. Add in that several of the items on the lists, like robberies and shootings, could just be robberies and shootings, you can't come to the conclusion that Americans are running around and violently persecuting Muslims.
In 2004, the FBI lists 156 hate crime incidents against Muslims against 1,374 incidents against Jews. You can see the whole listing here:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/
The ACLU and CAIR have played up every little incident as a major event. In CAIR's case, they have an agenda to promote Islam through any means. One of their founders stated that they wanted Islam to be the only religion of the U.S.
As for the article about the FBI and police. I hope they are monitoring mosques. Someone, and I can't remember who or the link, did a little snooping last year and found jihadist materials in several of the Saudi supported mosques in the country.
KreenWarrior, the problem is that, if anything, Muslims are moving back towards the jihadist teachings of the Koran and not away from them. If someone would like to show me an influential Muslim group that has formulated a Koranic explanation that refutes jihad, I would like to hear it.
Ubiq, it's not Christianity that's done the killing. It's been secularism (i.e. Marxism) that has resulted in the vast majority of deaths in the last century. Mao's China alone slaughtered 77 million of it's own people. Stalin killed 34 million.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist. |
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nshumate
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
464 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2005 : 07:49:18 AM
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See, that's one of the things that bugs me about the whole argument: Christianity has killed a lot of people in the past century; far more than Muslims have.
Um, may I call bullsh*t on that?
You can say that people who were nominally Christians, or from traditionally Christian countries or cultures, killed more people than nominal/traditional Muslims; that's supportable, insofar as the religion involved is rendered as irrelevant as eye color.
But how many people were killed in the last century specifically FOR Christianity? How many mass murderers and terrorists were on a holy crusade for Jesus? How many proudly trumpeted to the media that they were racking up a bodycount in honor of the Trinity?
Now let's compare that to the number killed by radical Islamicists who use their religion for the impetus and justification for their bloodshed...
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Nathan Shumate
http://www.coldfusionvideo.com |
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Victoria Silverwolf
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2005 : 10:04:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
Ubiq, it's not Christianity that's done the killing. It's been secularism (i.e. Marxism) that has resulted in the vast majority of deaths in the last century. Mao's China alone slaughtered 77 million of it's own people. Stalin killed 34 million.
May I protest the equation of "secularism" (I think you mean atheism) and Marxism here? I'm an atheist, and I have no sympathy whatsoever for the monsters who slaughtered millions in the name of Communism. Among the many evils of the Communist dictatorships was the repression of freedom of religion. As a "secular" American, I advocate absolute separation of church and state, along with the maximum possible religious freedom for the individual.
The problem is fanatical devotion to any system of belief, be it Islam or Communism. I would be the last to deny that there is a serious cancer in the heart of Islam in the modern world. If you accept the horrors recorded in the Old Testament as having any historical validity, there was such a cancer in the heart of Judaism thousands of years ago. A reading of history also tells us that there was such a cancer in the heart of Christianity many centuries ago. Both of these patients have recovered. Our goal must be to do whatever we can to help Islam recover from this cancer (although the healing must come from within.) We need to support organizations like this:
[url]http://www.freemuslims.org/[/url]
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We believe in the re-interpretation of Islam for the 21st century where terrorism is not justified under any circumstances.
We believe in the separation of religion and state.
We believe that democracy is the best form of government.
We believe in the promotion of secularism in all forms of political activity.
We believe that equality for women is an inalienable right.
We believe that religion is a personal relationship between the individual and his or her God and is not to be forced on anyone.
Reality is a crutch for people who can't face up to science fiction. |
Edited by - Victoria Silverwolf on 12/01/2005 10:05:41 PM |
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John Nowak
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1017 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2005 : 10:30:23 PM
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Originally posted by jedimom
As for your contentions that Christian-vs.-Muslim violence is uncommon in the US and that Muslims are not fleeing the US, I believe you are mistaken on both counts; either that, or you have a different notion than I do of what counts as a significant number of incidents.
http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_hate.jsp?id=278
Yes, I have a very different notion than what you do of what counts as a significant number of incidents.
Didn't you notice how hysterically inflated that list was? They had to pad out the actual incidents with trivialities.
"A Vietnam veteran picketed a Tuscon mosque." Wowsers!
"A fire in Los Altos destroyed a church with a predominantly Arab-American congregation" Note they don't even say "Arson destroyed..." Wanna bet the fire was ruled an accident?
C'mon. If this is the best they could find, there is no significant problem.
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Originally posted by jedimom
ACLU also reports FBI and police harrassment of Muslims as significant problems.
Of course. The ACLU is a business which makes money by frightening donors.
quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
In 2004, the FBI lists 156 hate crime incidents against Muslims against 1,374 incidents against Jews. You can see the whole listing here...
And just for grins, remember that there are 360 Americans hit by lightning each year, with 90 killed.
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We've always been united in stupidity. That's why there is no hope. But, then again, when has that ever stopped us?
-- hbrennan |
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Ubiq
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 12:12:24 AM
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Originally posted by Terrahawk
Ubiq, it's not Christianity that's done the killing. It's been secularism (i.e. Marxism) that has resulted in the vast majority of deaths in the last century.
Irrelevant; the comparison was between Islam and Christianity. Of the two religions, self-professed Christians have killed far more people.
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But how many people were killed in the last century specifically FOR Christianity? How many mass murderers and terrorists were on a holy crusade for Jesus? How many proudly trumpeted to the media that they were racking up a bodycount in honor of the Trinity?
Ah, but most of the mass murders and terrorists on the Christian side often folded their actions in with Racial Superiority.
Is the Klan not ostensibly a Protestant organization? Was Manifest Destiny (which, lest we forget, was a central cause of the deaths of somewhere between 250 thousand and a million Filipinos) not centered around the notion that Americans were destined to control North America because of Divine Providence? Did the Nazis not loudly proclaim the superiority of Christianity?
Was some of it lip service? Of course, but many of the people who run Islamic terrorist organizations are doing the same. If martyrdom is so glorious, then why haven't we seen Osama Bin Laden fly a plane into a building?
Simple, because he can talk some poor, misguided fool into doing it for him by pretending that it is what God wants him to do.
Did it not violate the entire spirit of the religion? Of course it did, but you cannot make that argument for one religion while rejecting it as being invalid where another religion is concerned, especially when both have histories of violence.
BM: I should have mentioned this at the beginning. I solve my problems with violence. |
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hbrennan
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Philippines
1455 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 03:27:10 AM
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Extremely astute, Ubiq.
"...yet it hadn't destroyed his brain."
re: Charles "The Butcher" Benton (1956)
http://henrybrennan.blogspot.com/ |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 06:41:30 AM
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Irrelevant; the comparison was between Islam and Christianity. Of the two religions, self-professed Christians have killed far more people.
Point taken. However, I would take a look at the whole history of both religions. Islam is far from a peaceable one. The Hindus were pretty much butchered by them.
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Ah, but most of the mass murders and terrorists on the Christian side often folded their actions in with Racial Superiority.
Is the Klan not ostensibly a Protestant organization? Was Manifest Destiny (which, lest we forget, was a central cause of the deaths of somewhere between 250 thousand and a million Filipinos) not centered around the notion that Americans were destined to control North America because of Divine Providence? Did the Nazis not loudly proclaim the superiority of Christianity?
Again, find in the Bible where it talks about Racial Superiority. Also, the Nazis were more pagan than Christian. It's just that there were too many Christians in Germany to go rounding them all up. So they had to pay, as you said, some lip service.
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Simple, because he can talk some poor, misguided fool into doing it for him by pretending that it is what God wants him to do.
You assume that religious people are easily duped in this case. More likely, if you asked a terrorist why OBL doesn't commit suicide, you'll get the rational answer that his destiny is to lead. The argument is kind of like say all U.S. soldiers in WWII were misguided because Eisnehower wasn't in a foxhole like them.
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Did it not violate the entire spirit of the religion?
This is back to my main point. No, their actions do not violate the tenets of Islam. Assuming that Islam is like other religions is a mistake.
Take a look at the verses in the Koran. And before you say, they are taken out of context, take a look at the context and it will even be worse.
http://pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com/2005/09/axis-of-islam-verses-of-hate.html
Also, I recommend looking at this site of a former Muslim.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sinaawa20.htm
Victoria, your point is taken to some extent. I was definitely imprecise in my terms.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist. |
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nshumate
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
464 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 07:44:33 AM
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Is the Klan not ostensibly a Protestant organization?
While it is definitely an organization with an undeniable Protestant flavor, I would challenge you to show parallels between the Klan as a Protestant organization and al-Qaeda et al. as Islamic organizations.
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Was Manifest Destiny (which, lest we forget, was a central cause of the deaths of somewhere between 250 thousand and a million Filipinos) not centered around the notion that Americans were destined to control North America because of Divine Providence?
Again, there's a long distance between "an ideal which grew out of a post-European culture which was informed by Christianity" and "an ideal which proclaims itself to be the only true interpretation of Islam, and death to all who oppose."
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Did the Nazis not loudly proclaim the superiority of Christianity?
You mean, the ones who weren't disclaiming Christianity as a has-been religion in favor of a neo-Teutonic religion?
I find your parallels to be shallow and not strong enough to stand up to more than soundbyte analysis. And more importantly, none of them are remotely relevant to the statement I was disputing:
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Christianity has killed a lot of people in the past century; far more than Muslims have.
We can ignore your allusions to the KKK and the Philippines for simply being in the wrong century. That leaves your sideways equation of Nazism with Christianity, which is so grossly out-of-whack as to be comical.
Will there be anything more legitimately resembling "support" for your statement, or will you just be papering over it?
Nathan Shumate
http://www.coldfusionvideo.com |
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Ubiq
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 6:43:29 PM
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Originally posted by Terrahawk
Islam is far from a peaceable one.
The same applies to Christianity.
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The Hindus were pretty much butchered by them.
Native Americans were largely butchered by self-identified Christians. The Spanish especially went out of their way to kill people for having the wrong religion.
Again, you're selectively ignoring history by suggesting that a violent culture cannot change despite the fact that Christianity has largely managed to cast aside the violence that has dominated it's culture for longer than Islam has even existed.
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Again, find in the Bible where it talks about Racial Superiority.
See, you're making this out to be an anti-Christian screed when it's not. Racial superiority is patently nonsense, but many of the groups that espoused those views decidely incorporated the notion that they were superior because God made them that way. These groups largely arose in Christian countries at the beginning of the last century; these days, it's in Islamic countries. They've substituted Moral superiority for Racial, but it's still the exact same idiocy that killed millions of people in the 20th century.
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Also, the Nazis were more pagan than Christian. It's just that there were too many Christians in Germany to go rounding them all up. So they had to pay, as you said, some lip service.
And yet a lot of Christians in Germany went along with it; Hitler did not use some magical mind control power to get the people of Germany to elect him to political office.
In a country that was so heavily dominated by Christians, many of the people who joined the Nazi Party had to be Christians. Some of them may well have abandoned their religion after joining, but many did not.
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You assume that religious people are easily duped in this case. More likely, if you asked a terrorist why OBL doesn't commit suicide, you'll get the rational answer that his destiny is to lead.
The rational approach would be to wonder why somebody promotes the idea that the greatest sacrifice is to kill yourself for God, but then never does it.
Suicide bombers have a tendency to be on the young side, which firmly puts them in the stupid and impressionable stage.
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Take a look at the verses in the Koran.
Again, if you want to pick out individual passages, then the same can be done with the Bible.
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Originally posted by nshumate
While it is definitely an organization with an undeniable Protestant flavor, I would challenge you to show parallels between the Klan as a Protestant organization and al-Qaeda et al. as Islamic organizations.
One is a organization that is devoted to the racial and religious "purity" of the United States. The other is an organization that is devoted to the construction of a wholly Islamic superstate (despite the fact that it hasn't worked in the past). Both use terroristic tactics to achieve their ends; one chooses to burn a cross while the other, lacking religious symbolism, simply blows something up and calls it God's will.
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Again, there's a long distance between "an ideal which grew out of a post-European culture which was informed by Christianity" and "an ideal which proclaims itself to be the only true interpretation of Islam, and death to all who oppose."
How so? Both are a radicalized interpretation that says that it's okay to kill people so long as they're different from you. That's not a new feature for either religion, though Islam originally exempted Christian and Jews so long as they paid their taxes.
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You mean, the ones who weren't disclaiming Christianity as a has-been religion in favor of a neo-Teutonic religion?
Yeah, the same guys that wore "Gott mit uns" on their belts.
Here's a quote by the way:
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ."
And another:
"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . . For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life . . . These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!"
While Hitler was just probably just paying lipservice, the fact remains that he felt the need to appeal to German Christians in this manner and many of them went along with his policies.
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I find your parallels to be shallow and not strong enough to stand up to more than soundbyte analysis.
I find your arbitrary distinctions and unwillingness to see obvious parallels patently ridiculous. I also like how you chose to parse out the section where I said that these people actually didn't practice the ideals of their religions if they even actually believed them.
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We can ignore your allusions to the KKK and the Philippines for simply being in the wrong century. That leaves your sideways equation of Nazism with Christianity, which is so grossly out-of-whack as to be comical.
I also find your math skills to be lacking in this instance; that or your knowledge of history.
This is 2005, one hundred years ago was 1905. The Philippine Insurrection was in full swing by this point. The Klan would reach its heights two decades later.
The fact that you do not also reject the Nazis proves that you are aware that I was referring to the 20th century as well as the first portion of the 21st.
The organizations and incidents that I mentioned clearly defined that I was speaking of the last hundred years; else I would have mentioned things like the Crusades, slavery, or incidents throughout the 19th century in years such as... oh, I don't know, 1857.
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Will there be anything more legitimately resembling "support" for your statement, or will you just be papering over it?
Depends, are you going to continue pretending that the aforementioned institutions did not incorporate Christianity into their ideology whether or not they actually believed in its actual principles?
BM: I should have mentioned this at the beginning. I solve my problems with violence. |
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nshumate
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
464 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2005 : 08:09:22 AM
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Let's see. Your parallels between the KKK and al-Qaeda amount to "They both blow stuff up."
Any comments trying to tie Manifest Destiny with the Philippines should really begin with the Spanish-American War, since the U.S. basically "inherited" the Philippines from their previous occupiers. The connection to Manifest Destiny is a lot more tenuous than "It's west of us, so it's ours!"
As for the "height" of the KKK -- are you telling me that there were more Klan murders in the early 20th century than in the mid-19th, when the first organization under that name murdered more than 1000 Republican voters? Yes, the Klan was at its "height" of membership and political power before its popularity plummeted in the 1920's -- but we're not talking political pull here. You specifically were looking for body counts.
And you still aren't making your case that Manifest Destiny, "a radicalized interpretation that says that it's okay to kill people so long as they're different from you," is intrinsically Christian. Is your contention that anything come up with by Christians is foundationally Christian? In that case, the heliocentric universe is Christian! Television sets are Christian!
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I find your arbitrary distinctions and unwillingness to see obvious parallels patently ridiculous.
They're only "obvious" until you examine them in greater than 25-word blocks. But hey, I disagree with you; I'm worthy of dismissiveness.
Let's just see how far you're willing to back off your original statement, while still aspiring to belligerence:
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Depends, are you going to continue pretending that the aforementioned institutions did not incorporate Christianity into their ideology whether or not they actually believed in its actual principles?
I'm not going to "continue pretending" any such thing, mainly because I never claimed any such thing. (It's a lot harder to debate with someone who isn't a straw man, I know, but try to keep up.) What I objected to, and what I will continue to point out despite all your attempts at distraction, is this:
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Christianity has killed a lot of people in the past century; far more than Muslims have.
And your support? "Um, if there were Christians involved, Christianity was to blame!" Which holds about as much water as blaming righthandedness for the majority of violent deaths in the last century.
Nathan Shumate
http://www.coldfusionvideo.com |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2005 : 08:44:09 AM
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Again, you're selectively ignoring history by suggesting that a violent culture cannot change despite the fact that Christianity has largely managed to cast aside the violence that has dominated it's culture for longer than Islam has even existed.
No, you're fighting a straw man here. At not point have I claimed that Christianity has always been peaceable. However, I am claiming that Christian doctrine is peaceable and in direct contrast to that, Islamic doctrine has large amounts of violence and subjugation.
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See, you're making this out to be an anti-Christian screed when it's not. Racial superiority is patently nonsense, but many of the groups that espoused those views decidely incorporated the notion that they were superior because God made them that way. These groups largely arose in Christian countries at the beginning of the last century; these days, it's in Islamic countries. They've substituted Moral superiority for Racial, but it's still the exact same idiocy that killed millions of people in the 20th century.
At no point have I accused you of anti-Christian statements, so I don't know where you are coming from here.
The racial superiority movement really came about due to the change in scientific belief, mainly evolution, towards the end of the 19th century. Christians had little or nothing to do with that and many opposed the logical results of using evolution in racial matters. Eugenics was not a Christian concept.
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In a country that was so heavily dominated by Christians, many of the people who joined the Nazi Party had to be Christians. Some of them may well have abandoned their religion after joining, but many did not.
Again, were they fighting for religion or were they fighting for other reasons?
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The rational approach would be to wonder why somebody promotes the idea that the greatest sacrifice is to kill yourself for God, but then never does it.
Suicide bombers have a tendency to be on the young side, which firmly puts them in the stupid and impressionable stage.
Did you read anything of what I posted on this before? It's perfectly rational to believe that different people have different roles in a conflict. Just because Tojo didn't hop in a plane to be a kamikaze, doesn't mean the mainly young kamikaze pilots were stupid and impressionable. Such thinking is arrogant since it assumes that only you can rationally determine the correct decision. A lot of suicide bombers are well educated anyways.
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Again, if you want to pick out individual passages, then the same can be done with the Bible.
Once again, take a look at the context of the verses. Take a look at commentaries written by later Islamic scholars. I'm not talking about taking one or two verses and saying it proves the point. It's amazing that the Islamists continue to plainly state why they do what they do and yet people refuse to believe them. Other Muslims haven't refuted them. For instance, the fatwa issued by some Islamic groups here in the US against terrorism quoted a Quranic verse that in context was aimed at the Jews. It had nothing to do with Muslims or Islam. Show me something that refutes in Islam the action of OBL and others.
You do know that the Ottoman Empire (i.e. Islamic Turkey) committed the first geoncides of the 20th century. Over 1 million Armenians were slaughtered. Plus you can throw in a few other minor slaughters.
And, living under Islamic domination was more than just paying a tax. Take Jim Crow and triple how bad it was.
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The other is an organization that is devoted to the construction of a wholly Islamic superstate (despite the fact that it hasn't worked in the past).
It doesn't matter whether it worked in the past or not. They are trying to form one and a lot of the Islamic world is at least sympathetic to their goal.
Additional Point
Comparing Christian support for Hitler is interesting in that Islamic countries supported Hitler. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a major Islamic leader at that time, was a big supporter and several SS units comprised of Muslim soldiers were raised. Obviously Hitler was on the cutting edge of ecumenical relations.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist. |
Edited by - Terrahawk on 12/05/2005 12:17:26 PM |
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2005 : 6:34:34 PM
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God, UBIG! There is just so much wrong with your post that I can't tackle it! I WILL leave you with this bit of trivia:
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Yeah, the same guys that wore "Gott mit uns" on their belts.
Those fellows would be the IMPERIAL German army of WWI.
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
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