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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2007 : 8:55:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Prankster
Uh, zombie, did you somehow miss the giant protests that take place every time there's a G-8 summit? They're very much directed at Putin.
Well, if that's true, then I'm glad to hear it. But I think it's safe to say Bush still draws a disproportionate amount of flack compared to Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Burma, Cuba...
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EVERYONE is affected by the US's policies, which currently include invading sovereign countries pre-emptively, or on trumped-up intelligence. That tends to make other countries angry, and leads to protests.
See my responses above. None of you have been able to provide any evidence that the intelligence was trumped up. A lot of it was wrong, lord knows, but why does wrong have to equal deliberately wrong?
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But it's pretty disingenuous to put everything on the shoulders of protesters, as if that was the only form of political criticism in existence.
There's nothing disingenuous about it. Somebody mentioned (I think Neville) that politicians often turn a blind eye to human rights abuses. My point (and C.C. concurs) is that citizens also turn a blind eye to atrocities.
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I think Bush is every bit as bad as Putin--he just happens to run a country where the law and the people won't let him get away with as much.
But you have no proof that Bush is just as bad. The fact that you hate him is not in and of itself proof that Bush is evil.
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A protest outside Russia would mean less than nothing to Putin, and everyone knows it. Therefore, you don't see as many non-Russian anti-Putin protests. It's not rocket science.
Again, a protest in Paris or Madrid or London means nothing to Bush. That's not rocket science either.
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But I don't know why I'm bothering, honestly. You 28% have proven time and again that this argument is a series of obsfucations and justifications to you.
Specifics?
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You like torture just fine (hey, why don't I come over to your house and waterboard you for a while, zombie? Since it's no big deal and all), and you don't believe in the rule of law except inasmuchas it benefits yourself.
I don't like torture just fine, but in rare instances waterboarding saves lives. Even ABC reporter Brian Ross, who hates Bush almost as much as you do, admits that the waterboarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammed help prevent an al Qaeda terrorist attack on Los Angeles.
And there's a good reason not to waterboard me, Prank... I'm not a terrorist. If we waterboarding every single Afgan or Iraqi we captured, that would be wrong. But we don't. It's a technique that's employed very rarely. If you have evidence that we waterboard everybody, please present.
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I'm sure you've got some elaborate defense for why Bush just pardoned--excuse me, commuted the sentence of Scooter Libby. It doesn't matter what is done, as long as it's in service to a right-wing agenda.
Yes, Prank, there is a difference between pardoning and commuting. For example, Henry Cisneros, who lied to the FBI during the Clinton adminstration, was pardoned (by Clinton). Marc Rich, a tax cheat who owed the US some $40 million in back taxes, was pardoned (by Clinton). Libby, found guilty of perjury and obstruction of justice, had his sentence commuted. He still has to pay a fine of $250,000. That's hardly getting off with a slap on the wrist. Anyway, whatever this has to do with what we're talking about is beyond me.
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And you think that, years after it's been firmly established, grudgingly acknowledging that Bush is a bungler (but he had good intentions!) is enough to show how non-partisan you are.
So we agree that Bush is a bungler! See, Prank, we do have something in common. Let's end on a positive note! |
Edited by - zombiewhacker on 07/04/2007 8:57:55 PM |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 03:07:54 AM
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Since zombiewhacker keeps asking me to present evidence of the U.S. torturing and illegaly helding prisoners...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1659302,00.html
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr511082005
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866
http://www.counterpunch.org/phillips12022005.html
As I said, I'm not an historian, and no doubt you'll start saying my sources are not valid. At this point, all i have to say is believe what you want to believe.
And really, if by this time you don't accept the Iraq invasion was carried out under false premises, you've been living under a stone for the past few years. I haven't looked for "evidence" yet, as you put it, but by today it is public domain, as they say. |
Edited by - Neville on 07/05/2007 03:45:42 AM |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:02:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
Actually, I'll take a swipe at the use of Godwin's law. Let's face the fact that liberals have made everyone but the Nazis some victimized class.
The minute the (West) Germans started being menaced by the Communists, they became victims. Remember Gregory Peck in NIGHT PEOPLE? |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:12:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville
you have to add that he is an hypocrite and somebody who has turned a democracy, which by definition is the form of government most respectful towards human rights, into a state that tortures suspects on a regular basis.
Since when? I admit somer nasty things have happened to captured Iraqis, but far nastier things went on in American prisons before Bush was born. Nasty things happen in prisons. |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:20:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Carrier
I've seen plenty of Che Guevarra t-shirts around.
I always ask anyone wearing a Che Guevara T shirt "Why not a Hitler T-shirt?" |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:32:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville
Clinton had his own share of international fiascos (the intervention in Somalia that resulted in the battle of Mogadiscio, the bombing of Sudan's alleged terrorist instalations), but nobody doubted his intentions were good. That certainly is not the case with George W. Bush. That he tried to form an international coalition to invade Iraq based on false accusations (Iraq's links to Al-Qaeda, the mass destruction weapons that are still to be found) and his failure to pacify the country after the occupation have seriously undermined any credit he may have.
I'll admit, however, that the current unpopularity of the U.S.A. in the rest of the world means every incident atributable to Americans is inmediately attributed to their President / administration and that such a thing is not entirely fair.
I think there's nothing wrong in criticising your own society. After all, who knows it better than you? And how can you start criticising other societies without acknowledging the flaws in your own first? And las but not least, aren't you supposed to have the right to do so?
I never doubted that Bush's intentions were good. Iraq WAS linked to
Al-Qaeda. And as for the weapons of mass destruction, would you rather he waited till he had clear-cut proof-like a smoking hole where New York City used to be? The U.S.A. was unpopular before anyone had ever heard of George W. Bush. I support, with all my soul, people's right to criticize any country they want to criticize-and my right to tell them off when they lie or use double standards. |
Edited by - New Hinda on 07/05/2007 07:10:19 AM |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:43:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by zombiewhacker
Further, if you honestly believe that any world leader is actually going to do a complete about-face in policy because a few Marxists in Belgium waved some placards, well, then, I have a bridge on the River Kwai to sell you.
Very funny. Do you accept royalties, Zombiewhacker? |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:54:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gristle McThornbody
During the leadup to the last US presidential election, Amnesty International as much as admitted to exagerrating claims of abuses they had made against the US government, stating that the claims were useful as a fundraising measure.
When did they admit that? |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 07:06:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Carrier
laughing stalk.
You make me (sic.) |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
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Gristle McThornbody
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
Germany
186 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 10:39:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by New Hinda
quote:
Originally posted by Gristle McThornbody
During the leadup to the last US presidential election, Amnesty International as much as admitted to exagerrating claims of abuses they had made against the US government, stating that the claims were useful as a fundraising measure.
When did they admit that?
Damn it! I knew I wouldn't be able to find the links - the story is over three years old and most links I could find were dead. So take it for what it's worth...
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!" |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 12:03:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gristle McThornbody
quote:
Originally posted by New Hinda
quote:
Originally posted by Gristle McThornbody
During the leadup to the last US presidential election, Amnesty International as much as admitted to exagerrating claims of abuses they had made against the US government, stating that the claims were useful as a fundraising measure.
When did they admit that?
Damn it! I knew I wouldn't be able to find the links - the story is over three years old and most links I could find were dead. So take it for what it's worth...
And its worth - Jabootu. |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 2:09:55 PM
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You're all wrong:
'In 1999, Icke wrote and published The Biggest Secret: The Book that Will Change the World, in which he identified the extraterrestrial Prison Warders as reptilians from the constellation Draco. [22]They walk erect and appear to be human, living not only on the planets they come from, but also in caverns and tunnels under the earth. They have cross-bred with humans, which has created "hybrids" who are "possessed" by the full-blooded reptilians. [23] The reptiles' hybrid reptilian-human DNA allows them to change from reptilian to human form if they consume human blood. Icke has drawn parallels with the 1980s science-fiction series V, in which the earth is taken over by reptiloid aliens disguised as humans.
According to Icke, the reptilian group includes many prominent people and practically every world leader from Britain's late Queen Mother to George H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and Tony Blair. These people are either themselves reptilian, or work for the reptiles as what Icke calls slave-like victims of multiple personality disorder: "The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the British royal family, and the ruling political and economic families of the U.S. and the rest of the world come from these SAME bloodlines. It is not because of snobbery, it is to hold as best they can a genetic structure — the reptilian-mammalian DNA combination which allows them to 'shape-shift'." [4]'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 3:02:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by New Hinda
I never doubted that Bush's intentions were good. Iraq WAS linked to
Al-Qaeda. And as for the weapons of mass destruction, would you rather he waited till he had clear-cut proof-like a smoking hole where New York City used to be? The U.S.A. was unpopular before anyone had ever heard of George W. Bush. I support, with all my soul, people's right to criticize any country they want to criticize-and my right to tell them off when they lie or use double standards.
1) I'm sure many people believed in Bush's good intentions all over the world, otherwise he wouldn't have been elected again. I was speaking in behalf of my own country.
2) I still have to see any evidence (either convincing or unconvincing) about a relation existing between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. Ironically, there is a clear relation between Iraq and Al-Qaeda NOW.
3) I don't believe Iraq ever had the power to destroy New York. U.N. reports right before the invasion indicated that all Iraqi WMD programs had stopped after the I Gulf War*. Even if they hadn't, it would have taken them many years to reach that level.
4) (re: your last sentence) Glad we agree on something, though.
* I couldn't find the sources for that affirmation, although I was reading them yesterday. I did find this, however:
quote:
Contradicting the main argument for a war that has cost more than 1,000 U.S. lives, the top U.S. arms inspector reported Wednesday that he had found no evidence that Iraq produced weapons of mass destruction after 1991. He also concluded that Saddam Hussein’s weapons capability weakened, not grew, during a dozen years of U.N. sanctions before the U.S. invasion last year.
The source is the article at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6190720 |
Edited by - Neville on 07/05/2007 3:04:44 PM |
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2007 : 01:10:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ericb
According to Icke, the reptilian group includes many prominent people and practically every world leader from Britain's late Queen Mother to George H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and Tony Blair. These people are either themselves reptilian, or work for the reptiles as what Icke calls slave-like victims of multiple personality disorder: "The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the British royal family, and the ruling political and economic families of the U.S. and the rest of the world come from these SAME bloodlines. It is not because of snobbery, it is to hold as best they can a genetic structure — the reptilian-mammalian DNA combination which allows them to 'shape-shift'." [4]'
MEN IN BLACK anyone? |
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