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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
 Posted - 01/14/2008 : 1:22:18 PM
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Sorry to differ, but I loved Crimes and Misdemeanors. A terrfic movie I never get tired of watching.
Manhattan Murder Mystery is also worth catching, though it doesn't hold up to repeat viewings.
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 1:26:32 PM
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Funny the Warden brought up 48 Hrs. I was about to post saying that just about every movie Walter Hill ever worked on (with the exception of Alien) doesn't age well.
Some comedic set pieces in 48 Hrs. still hold up, but Nick Nolte's racist mutterings are a real obstacle. The movie also falters today for another reason: it's a lousy cop picture.
SPOILERS to follow:
Nothing that happens in the film makes a lick of sense. In real life, Nolte's character would have been suspended from the get-go. Not only was Nolte directly responsible for getting one of his fellow detectives shot, he's widely despised throughout the department. Instead, not only is Nolte not suspended or even reassigned to desk work pending a hearing, Nolte's captain (who hates Nolte, too) puts him in charge of the homicide investigation. Yeah, that would happen in real life. Especially in politically charged San Francisco.
Meanwhile Nolte, with the resources of the department at his disposal, decides instead to go it alone. Even when he has the killers cornered (like at the BART station), he never thinks to call in for back up or even alert the local flatfoots on the scene. So naturally the killers get away and Nolte himself gets arrested. Nice procedure there.
This is because movies like 48 Hrs. are relics of their era, one that I would trace back to the 1970s, when audiences were far less sophisticated about police procedure. The cop hero always goes it alone, for no other reason than that it's supposedly really, really cool... if you're twelve years old. Thanks to decades of shows like NYPD Blue, Law and Order, CSI, The Shield and others, people are a little open to the idea that if a cop's about to take on a roomful of thugs by himself, it might be advantageous to let dispatch know where he is. Just in case, ya know, he runs out of bullets or something.
(We'll leave the nonsensical notion of Confederate rednecks owning a honkeytonk bar in Chinatown to another post.)
END SPOILERS.
As a sidenote, I might add that just about every Eddie Murphy has ever made has shown signs of wear and tear. 48 Hrs. is rocket science compared to Beverly Hills Cop. |
Edited by - zombiewhacker on 01/14/2008 4:24:22 PM |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 2:14:28 PM
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quote:
This is because movies like 48 Hrs. are relics of their era, one that I would trace back to the 1970s, when audiences were far less sophisticated about police procedure
I noticed this when watching a bunch of Hawaii Five-0Hawaii Five-0 episode on DVD. Almost every episode ends with the perp getting shot, usually killed. If it had been L&O or NYPD Blue there would be an internal affairs investigation at the end of every show and McGarrett and Dano would have long ago been put on desk duty.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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thewarden
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 3:05:13 PM
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quote:
audiences were far less sophisticated about police procedure
Police were also much less sophisticated about police procedure. Much of the tension in older police dramas about the FBI vs. locals was actually about this issue. The FBI with their "scientific" methods vs. the beat cop with his intuition. The holy grail of most police investigations was the confession. Forget the implausibilities of the case, or the lack of physical evidence, sweating a suspect until he confessed was assumed to solve a crime.
Indeed, much of the concern of Miranda and such in police dramas -- like the Dirty Harry series -- was about getting in the way of tried and true techniques like browbeating a suspect into a confession. So, the beat cop, going it alone, breaking the rules was a popular meme since it played on the theme of a guardian of law and order doing what was necessary to lock up the bad guys, and for most people (and I think most cops even) it seemed compelling.
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 4:09:36 PM
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This is a pretty roundabout association, but all this discussion of 48 Hrs brought to mind another one of my childhood favorites that hasn’t aged at all well. I’m thinking of a TV show though – “All in the Family”. I used to love the show as a kid. In fact, since this was long before video, I used to use a tape recorder to make cassettes of the soundtracks and play them over and over. When I watch it now, however, I’m aware of something extremely off-putting that just sailed over my head at the time. Simply put, the entire show is structured around ridiculing and vilifying Archie. We are clearly supposed to believe that he is absolutely wrong about everything and every other character in the show – if not the world - is his moral superior. It’s kind of an anti-“M.A.S.H.” in its way, because there we were supposed to believe that Hawkeye and Trapper and that other guy were superior to everyone else in the world and could therefore do as they please – drink on duty, go A.W.O.L., encourage dissertion, perform unnecessary operations after poisoning people, etc. As far as “All in the Family” is watchable today it’s because O’Connor was such a good actor that he was able to project a likable and engaging personality through the constant attempts of the writers to portray him as the unredeemable villain.
My roundabout link to 48 Hrs stems from the fact that Murphy has always been kind of the anti-O’Connor to me. Even if his characters are supposed to be admirable or heroic, he’ll deploy a whole set of annoying, smart-ass, holier-than-thou, motor-mouth, off-putting mannerisms in bringing them to the screen. Believe it or not I can actually find him less likable than Chris Tucker (!) because at least you can sense that Tucker doesn’t take himself completely seriously, whereas with Murphy it was always about his ego and how superior he was to everyone else on screen. The reason that 48 Hrs hasn’t aged well is because Eddie Murphy’s swelled head hasn’t aged well. To be as fair to the guy as possible, I do think that he has mellowed considerably since then and turned in some good performances. I thought he was quite good in Bowfinger, for example, but to me his early movies are just plain unwatchable. |
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 4:30:16 PM
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| Even Dirty Harry knew enough to radio for backup when a bank robbery broke out. |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 8:46:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by R. Dittmar
In fact, since this was long before video, I used to use a tape recorder to make cassettes of the soundtracks and play them over and over.
So I wasn't the only kid who used to record TV shows on the tape recorder.
A lot of 70's comedy suffered from the need to have a "message." Of course, that really limits it's appeal years later.
Speaking of TV shows, I'll vote for Twin Peaks. I remember loving it in college. Now it seems very pedestrian.
- Si desea pulse 2 para español, encontrar un país diferente. - |
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RockerD
Archdeacon of Jabootu
12 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 01:18:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thewarden
quote:
audiences were far less sophisticated about police procedure
Police were also much less sophisticated about police procedure. Much of the tension in older police dramas about the FBI vs. locals was actually about this issue. The FBI with their "scientific" methods vs. the beat cop with his intuition. The holy grail of most police investigations was the confession. Forget the implausibilities of the case, or the lack of physical evidence, sweating a suspect until he confessed was assumed to solve a crime.
Indeed, much of the concern of Miranda and such in police dramas -- like the Dirty Harry series -- was about getting in the way of tried and true techniques like browbeating a suspect into a confession. So, the beat cop, going it alone, breaking the rules was a popular meme since it played on the theme of a guardian of law and order doing what was necessary to lock up the bad guys, and for most people (and I think most cops even) it seemed compelling.
If you've ever read Homicide by David Simon, you'd realize that the confession really is the holy grail of an investigation. Think of most inner-city murders in a place like D.C. or Philly or Baltimore; where you have to deal with unreliable and reluctant witnesses and very little forensic evidence around, maybe a shell casing behind some garbage cans or something, in fact, very few murders are solved by forensic evidence. Most of those murders are drug related in some way, and usually the murder police don't screw around waiting for the CSI units to show up, they go looking for the most likely suspect, either because the cop understands how the street works and where the guy who did this would most likely be and who he did it for, or because a witness fingered him but won't testify in court to that effect, so a confession really is the only way to lock down a suspect in many cases. These movies were only reflecting that reality. |
Edited by - RockerD on 01/15/2008 01:20:33 AM |
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 08:22:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RockerD
If you've ever read Homicide by David Simon, you'd realize that the confession really is the holy grail of an investigation. Think of most inner-city murders in a place like D.C. or Philly or Baltimore; where you have to deal with unreliable and reluctant witnesses and very little forensic evidence around, maybe a shell casing behind some garbage cans or something, in fact, very few murders are solved by forensic evidence. Most of those murders are drug related in some way, and usually the murder police don't screw around waiting for the CSI units to show up, they go looking for the most likely suspect, either because the cop understands how the street works and where the guy who did this would most likely be and who he did it for, or because a witness fingered him but won't testify in court to that effect, so a confession really is the only way to lock down a suspect in many cases. These movies were only reflecting that reality.
I bet you can go even further here and argue that – even in the absence of a confession – the overwhelming majority of crimes are cleared by simply bringing in suspects for a talk with police. Police – probably through the millennia – have been tremendously lucky in that criminals are generally extremely stupid people. If you just bring one in for questioning, there probably a far better than 50/50 chance that he’ll say something dumb and incriminate himself. Even if the police don’t get a confession, they’ll have leads to follow up to help make their case. I’m sure that it’s been a lot harder since Miranda now that even the dumbest criminals are explicitly told to keep quiet, but I’m sure that even now stupid comments on the parts of suspects are a lot of what make cases.
I was actually reading an account of one of the most famous pre-Miranda interrogations of all time recently. In Vincent Bugliosi’s book about the Kennedy assassination, Reclaiming History, he discusses in some detail Oswald’s talks with Dallas homicide officers. The chief of homicide talked to Oswald three or four times without even bothering to go on the record. Just from conversing with Oswald, he was able to catch him out in incriminating lie after lie after lie. Even before any of the forensic evidence came back, they knew Oswald was guilty. And given the available evidence, Oswald was somewhat above average in intelligence – far, far smarter than the average lawbreaker. (Of course the Dallas PD wasn’t nearly as skilled in transporting prisoners, but that’s another story.) |
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RossM
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 08:29:09 AM
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Simon also points out that along with actual little forensic evidence, in reality the police are under intense political pressure to solve certain sensitive murders and to ignore others. In Baltimore these crimes are redballed as they say. Detectives also get credit for solving crimes, the more the better. This encourages them to go after easy ones and to push more mysterious murders into the background. Working on a crime that takes months or years to solve will yield less credit than getting many easy ones. These pressures are usually ignored in movies and TV, or they are played up to the hilt. A confession, usually in the name of self defense is indeed the usual method of solving street murders.
rossM |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 09:00:34 AM
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Back to Race for the Yankee Cephyr, I just finished watching it. Frst of all, I can understand Captain Nemo's feelings, as it is a rather bland and silly movie. Despite this, I have to say I found it moderately enjoyable.
If little else, it has some decent chases and great New Zealand scenery, and Donald Pleasence and George Peppard are quite fun to watch, specially Peppard. |
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thewarden
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 10:49:29 AM
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quote:
A confession, usually in the name of self defense is indeed the usual method of solving street murders.
"Solving"
Resolving, I think is the word you are looking for, as in providing a justification for closing a case.
As a practical matter, very few "street" murders are solved. The clearance rate in many high-murder locations is around 50%, but that includes the domestic stuff which is almost 100% cleared. So the percentages of gang-banger murders cleared is minimal.
The challenge is that in cases where there is no or little material evidence, the rates of wrongful incarceration are unacceptably high. The increasing use of DNA to test old convictions (a trend which is opposed by DAs almost uniformly) shows just how many errors there have been. That is due to the pursuit of confessions... or the use of evidence base on inconsistent testimony.
But I'll tell you what. If I bring in a trained interrogator, he will highlight a half-dozen contradictions/inconsistencies in your description of your morning commute. How many sugars in your coffee? What was on the radio? Did you pass that red car on the left or the right? Does that mean you committed a crime driving in? No, well how can I trust you now when I can't even trust you to tell me the truth about how many sugars you put in your coffee?
Anyway, confessions are marginally more useful that "eyewitness testimony" which is about as close to random as possible, but not by much.
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R. Dittmar
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
420 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 11:52:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thewarden
But I'll tell you what. If I bring in a trained interrogator, he will highlight a half-dozen contradictions/inconsistencies in your description of your morning commute. How many sugars in your coffee? What was on the radio? Did you pass that red car on the left or the right? Does that mean you committed a crime driving in? No, well how can I trust you now when I can't even trust you to tell me the truth about how many sugars you put in your coffee?
I agree that any interrogator can sit down with a person, start asking questions and turn up inconsistencies in their description of trivial events. That’s not what they’re looking for though. The good interrogators will catch the criminal in bald-faced lies that are clearly being told in an effort to conceal criminal culpability. I don’t particularly remember how many coffees I had this morning or even whether I took the 7:50 train instead of the 7:15 two Mondays ago, but I can darn well tell you that I came into work today on the R2 just like I do every weekday morning. A skilled interrogator is going understand that I might err on the trivia, but my story about taking the train I did will have the “ring of truth”. If there is a core of truth to someone’s story and that core of truth is exculpatory, then no amount of interrogation will cause an honest person to contradict themselves in an incriminating way.
Again I stress that most criminals are very stupid. Under interrogation they end up being caught over and over again in lies – shameless, bare-faced, idiotic easily-contradicted lies. They aren’t misremembering trivial things, they are blatantly trying to deceive the police. Is it possible that someone is so moronic that they openly lie time and time again to the police even though they are innocent of any crime? Certainly. Is it possible that someone at one time who lied time and time again to the police on extremely material matters while under suspicion ended up being convicted of a crime he didn’t commit? Not certain. Maybe probable. You just have to admit though that at some point a person’s behavior under interrogation becomes so obviously indicative of guilt that the police would be fools not to try and bring charges. |
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 1:32:58 PM
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Back on topic:
Enter the Dragon.
Understand where I'm coming from here: when I was a youngster I saw this movie literally a hundred times. I know 95% of the dialogue by heart. I had a Bruce Lee poster in my room. I owned (and still own) the Lalo Schifrin soundtrack on vinyl.
But boy does this movie not wear well.
Bruce remains the Bruce... although the way he mangles dialogue during the first half hour of the film is often painful to watch. Leonard Maltin once described this as an "almost perfect action film" filled with "mind-boggling action". Well, this pic falls far short of perfect, and as for the "mind-boggling action" aside from Lee's classic nunchuku moment much of the action is sluggish in the extreme. Any ten seconds of combat footage from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon blows this movie's carnage away. It's almost as if Lee (who also doubled as the film's fight choreographer) was afraid if the action went too fast 70s audiences might not be able to "keep up". Watch Bruce fight Bob Wall and count the lulls between blows. Literally count them.
Lee punches Wall in the face.
One one-thousand, two one-thousand, three one-thousand...
Wall grabs Lee's legs and gets somersault-kicked in the face.
One one-thousand, two one-thousand, three one-thousand...
Wall rises to his feet.
One one-thousand, two one-thousand...
Lee kicks Wall again.
One one-thousand, two one-thousand, three one-thousand...
Lee kicks Wall a third time.
One one-thousand, two one-thousand, three one-thousand...
Ye Gods, Zhang Ziyi could have dispatched an entire room filled with thugs in the the amount of time it takes Lee to deliver one punch and three kicks, and Wall's still on his feet. This is somebody's idea of martial arts combat? |
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thewarden
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 4:31:02 PM
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On topic as well:
Two family movies: The Sound of Music and Mary Poppins. None of the kids in my family -- two nieces and my two boys -- can sit through them. Wizard of Oz, on the other hand, seems to have held up.
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